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Reply With Quoteadam VIPSS (02-24-2011), jeff jones (02-24-2011), Robert Santori (02-24-2011)
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By Sarina Locke from Canberra 2600
Wednesday, 23/02/2011
Working dogs are suffering at the mercy of ignorant handlers.
In the first ever major census style study of working dogs in the world, Dr Nick Branson, manager of animal services and welfare at Deakin University, found that just 6 per cent of the respondents had TAFE certified qualifications.
Another 40 per cent had on the job training, and the remaining 52 per cent were self-taught.
Dr Branson explained his findings to the RSPCA conference in Canberra on working animals.
The lack of training "limits the choices they've got, in terms of knowing to go about doing things differently if what they've tried the first time was not necessarily successful," says Nick Branson.
20 per cent of those surveyed said they used electric shock collars, and the number may be higher.
"The aim of doing it is to stop the dog from doing what it is currently doing.
"The assumption is that the dog interprets what it's doing in the same way that you do."
The problem is, the dog might not respond well the next time you give it an instruction.
"You may frighten the dog, the dog may run away and you may never see it again."
He says we tend to blame the dog, when the handler might be missing "an opportunity... to change their approach to teaching the dog, rather than trying to force the dog to do things that they want it to do."
"The study, commissioned through the Australian Animal Welfare Strategy, looked at four types of working dogs: private industry (farm, hunting, guard etc); Government (customs, quarantine, defence); assistance/service (guide, hearing, search and rescue); and sport (greyhound, sled, sheep trial)," taken from the Deakin University website.
Handlers use correction or discipline, play or food treats.
Dog handlers in the private industries most commonly use correction.
Those in Government use play as a reward, in the assistance dog sector they use food, and in sport - greyhound racing, for example, the handlers use the full range of training techniques.
Dr Branson says "you should trial different things to work out what it is that an individual dog values."
Kelpie Council on Farm dogs
Sheep dogs love nothing more than playing with sheep.
It's disappointing to the Kelpie Working Dog Council of Australia that the census didn't get more farmers responding to the survey.
Dr Don Robertson says the survey may have overlooked the workshops farmers can attend at working dog trials.
"Once the dog realizes the he's born to work sheep, and starts to work sheep, his greatest reward is being allowed to continue to work sheep."
He welcomes the survey and says farmers can learn more about how to handle their dog.
You can see Australia's oldest sheep dog trial at Hall, in the Australian Capital Territory Monday March 14 to Sunday March 20. The National Sheep Dog Trials
Kelpie pup asleep
This 8 week old puppy found the excitement of the show all too much (Edwina Noll)
Audio
Working dog handlers need more training, to stop mistreatment of dogs. Dr Nick Branson, Deakin University with Sarina Locke
From ABC website - here
adam VIPSS (02-24-2011), jeff jones (02-24-2011), Robert Santori (02-24-2011)
"You may frighten the dog, the dog may run away and you may never see it again."
You may also fall over in a paddock breaking both your legs and your dog may need to eat your carcass to survive. lol, we can talk about possible scenarios all day long but just choosing to focus on portraying the negative side of corrections and what can go wrong leaves this survey lacking credibility in my eyes.
So the end result is working dog handlers need more training? I could have saved them a lot of time and effort in giving them that statement.
adam VIPSS (02-24-2011), Chris Flegler (02-24-2011), Jess Rhodes (03-02-2011), Mark (02-24-2011), Neville Patterson (02-27-2011), Robert Santori (02-24-2011), Vendo Vincent (02-24-2011)
I know this man from Deakin and spoke to him before considering filling out his survey (which I didnt) The questions were worded badly and he had NO working knowledge of dog training, so considering they are now rabbiting on about 'self taught' and undereducated people in the industry, they're one to cast stones ...
They didnt look at why dogs were receiving corrections or what was going on, it was way too basic a survey to get a true idea. Racing greyhounds and sled dogs dont even work on a leash, either do most herding dogs HENCE the electronic collar. Detections dogs dont need that many corrections due to the result you want to get ... and if you want to get technical protection dogs need massive positive reinforcement in order to show the pep and vigour with which to do their work. I sent him an email when his research first came out and he had no idea about how e-collars were used, especially how useful they were for both positive/negative punishment and not just zapping the life out of the dog. The whole article is a rehash of the one first released when it came out.
adam VIPSS (02-24-2011), Chris Flegler (02-24-2011), jeff jones (02-24-2011), Mark (02-24-2011), Neville Patterson (02-27-2011), Robert Santori (02-25-2011)
This Survey was designed purely to give welfare bodies the ammunition to justify future funding for themselves from government. Dr Branson's interpretation of the results are terribly simplistic and it really highlights how uneducated and misinformed he is on the reality of working dogs, the training tools and techniques used by working dog handlers and trainers. They are not interested to hear or see the truth because it simply does not suit there agenda. At the K909 conference in Ipswich they had a representative exhibiting the survey to encourage the delegates to take part. My observation was that very few delegates were interested. This guy seemed to be very interested in watching the videos demonstrating our dogs and eventually we had a conversation that started with him asking about the Ecollars that I had on display. We had quite a big discussion on the collars and our training methods and I offered to show him my dogs training with the collars. I also offered to do demonstrations for anyone else involved in the survey anywhere in Australia. Needless to say he didn't take up my offer.
jeff jones (02-24-2011), Mark (02-24-2011), Neville Patterson (02-27-2011), Robert Santori (02-25-2011)
Representatives of welfare bodies (academics, vets, etc.) are not dog trainers and their skill and knowledge of how to safely and effectively use an e-collar is limited. E-collars are a highly sophisticated tool in knowledgeable hands, and its uses range far, far beyond that of a simple application for making corrections or to provide aversive stimuli.
I think forum readers with a reasonable background in training dogs understand that abuse is not specific to the use of e-collars, it can occur with any training tool, or even with no tools. But there is abuse and abuse and too many people I see buying over-the-counter e-collars have never trained their dog, or any dog, to anything at all, but are cut loose to train their dog while still figuring out how to make the buttons work. I have said to would-be e-collar trainers, if they aren’t capable of training a dog to a SchH 3 level then they shouldn’t be using an e-collar. E-collars require somewhat more skill and a better understanding of the learning principles underlying their correct use. Therefore, it would be useful, and could be recommended it be mandated, that training courses or DVDs on the correct use of e-collars be made available at contact point for each purchase. I know the manufacturers do provide booklets and a DVD on the use of these collars, but these are not that informative or forthcoming when it comes to making people more fully aware of their responsibilities towards the dog.
These studies done by professional people do carry weight in bureaucratic (law making) circles, if only because their work follows channels lending official accreditation to a process.
Julie Kopunovich quite rightly pointed out the problems associated with the “hands-on” limitations of many academics, but we cannot dismiss their influence on our own situations. In the same light, as a canine community we could do more to clean up our own backyard; many commercial canine training “experts” could do with some qualified independent scrutiny of their own practices, via an accredited evaluator or process. In Europe, all the heavy lifting of this load is being done by the various national sport dog programs (KNPV, IPO, Ringsport etc) with their own special brands of transparency in testing that soon sorts out the men from the boys; which is one reason why the rest of the world buys their working dogs out of Europe and looks to European trainers for their personal mentoring.
Despite the pockets of well informed and dedicated trainers scattered about our nation, we don’t have any where near the sort of working dog culture able to provide the depth of qualified mentoring and independent evaluation of our handlers and their dogs capabilities. In fact, it’s a bit of a free for all, which no doubt suits many of those undesirable elements in the canine community profiteering off the market’s ignorance and gullibility.
And it is usually this lack of self regulation and the many complaints accompanying it, which results in outside agencies (bureaucrats and academics) getting involved in regulating the unregulated industries, with their much to-be-expected mediocre outcomes. The sad direction the dog laws took in Victoria some years back are just one example of how badly, misinformed and ignorant bureaucrats, can get it completely wrong, where regulation meant to protect the community from “cowboys” actually penalises responsible canine training organisations, in Victoria’s case the Schh/IPO clubs, that share their own goals! Not recognising that the Sport’s objectives for the preservation of the working breeds’ soundness, for better education, for breeding transparency and public safety should really be making them allies and not enemies.
Alison Kollenberg
Last edited by Alison Kollenberg; 02-26-2011 at 02:57 PM.
Lynda Trotter (02-26-2011), Mark (02-26-2011), Neville Patterson (02-27-2011), Robert Santori (02-27-2011)
Nice post Alison, I totally agree.
Furthermore, I actually hold the German Shepherd Clubs responsible for the misconceptions, cowboy operations and the necessity for burecrats becoming involved to the detrement of the working canine community, as if they (GSD organisations), bred by the book instead of operating under self interest and fear that someone may be required to get off their backside, train and title a dog in Schutzhund in order to be shown and bred, and fear of supposed champions being put out to pasture if placed under working scrutiny having not one authentic GSD bone in their body, this whole working dog fiasco would have never eventuated in my opinion.
By memory, the GSD breeders registered is the 2nd or 3rd largest in the country with a massive amount of voice from a large number of people involved with the breed that work testing and titling dogs should by now be a mainstream normal practice that the greater community is so used to seeing Schutzhund training conducted that eyebrows are never raised over the subject. When you have the GSD Clubs, the group who should be responsible enough to be screaming at the top of their lungs to say "hey, we have to work title our dogs to show and breed them as part of the breed standards to maintain the breed quality", are running around in ignorance as the major players against Schutzhund and in support of the claims that Schutzhund is attack training creating dangerous dogs, what hope have the working community got???.
Even the cowboys would have to conform if they wanted to breed registered dogs. No more bitework behind a set of factory units with dogs that have no obedience training firing them off bite sleeves with Ecollars, the cowboys would have to join a Schutzhund club by necessity and learn how to train a dog properly and learn what traits in the breeding program make up the correct traits to maintain the breeds integrity.
If the GSD Clubs supported the breeding practices by the book as I believe they are obliged to do so, the working dog situation would be in a far better place in this country.
Cheers
Nev
Mark (02-27-2011), Robert Santori (02-27-2011)
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