Thread: E-Collars

From my experience it purely comes down to a lack of exposure to innovative E-Collar training methods that are available now and people can only form opinions on what they have been exposed too. Generaly e-collars are only used in working applications with high drive, hard character dogs in an attempt to gain some level of control around severe distraction or in the pet world when a severe behavioural problem exists and every attempt to fix it traditionaly has failed.

It is not the E-Collar that is the problem it is the method of training that accompanies it's use. I will teach people how to train using an e-collar with a dog as young as 10 weeks of age however I would not recomend that someone just go out and buy a collar and use it without any knowledge of the most current training method available that produces dog's that are reliable off leash around severe distraction and most importantly with great attitudes.

If anybody wants some exposure to the most up to date and innovative method of E-Collar training visit SIT MEANS SIT DOG TRAINING and have a look at over 200 videos of all types of dog training including puppies at 10 weeks of age and under 12 months.

Not that long ago i wasn't a big fan of using e-collars until I opened my eyes and had a look at what was out there in the dog training world. I was blown away by what I was seeing and I quickly realised that the results speak for themselves. What stood out to me more than anything was the great attitude of every dog on every single video that I watched.

Chris

I think you have misunderstood my reference to ecollars and their use. I have no problems using an ecollar or a pinch collar, but not on a six month old pup irrespective of what level of stim you are using. I trained the 'drop' on my dog (pup) at eight weeks of age using food and praise, so why would I need to use an ecollar on her at six months?

I use an ecollar now just to polish positioning and certain other exercises, but my dog is 20 months old now.

She was doing distance control perfectly; sit, stand, down (quickly) without an ecollar at three months. She was also heeling on the leash and free at three months, all without the use of the ecollar, and most importantly without stress. This was all treated as a game she enjoyed.

I understand the use of an ecollar perfectly, a friend of mine Lou Castle is an expert on their use and lectures on them worldwide, so I don't need lessons, I just feel that using them on a pup is not only unnecessary, but can also produce a nervy or worse pup who'll grow into a nervy adult. It is indeed a different matter when they are old enough (12 months) to deal with the experience without it having a detrimental and possible permanent effect. This is my opinion, I don't insist everybody agrees with me, they can do what they want with their own dogs.

Commercial venture (franchises) which train using ecollars at any age, are just that..... commercial ventures. I don't decry them, but I don't place any value in their methods.

On the other hand, as Ben pointed out Mike Fransen has been using and training with the e collar for many years and has titled many dogs in the NVBK Belgian ring, he undoubtedly knows what he's doing and I would have no problem with his methods providing they didn't involve ecollars and pups, which I'm sure they don't.


Peter

l am not anti e-collar, but would not use one on a pup at a stage you can achieve all that is required easily without it.
They have come a long way in the collars themselves and the methods of use, but l prefer to gain as much ground without any tool as l can. This would include food also after about the 12th week.
Midol l am sure there is more to your method than the described , stim until pup complies with commad.
There must be a process of showing what is required to match the command, because to picture a pup trying to figure out what action for a certain new command will stop the stim , seems stressful to me , moreso , probably than the stim itself. As l said maybe that is just a simple overview of your full approach. l don't use them, but agree that they are a tool that people are having good success with at the moment. l also can not see a "need" to use one on a little puppy that should be just learning basics almost as a part of its adventurous existence.
Just my approach Tony

Ohhh, I definitely guide the dog, otherwise it's pretty useless. UNLESS he is doing something which I don't want to occur by default (I don't issue commands or guidance for pulling on the leash and such.) I'm probably not writing down other small things I do so next time I use it I'll take note of everything I do.

You've both given me your personal preferences but WHY do you not like using one? What downside is there? Why & how will it create a nervous or fearful dog? The reason we use low stimulation is to avoid such issues.

Lou actually recommends 6 months and over, and his reasons for recommending so (on his site) is that it is hard to find the working level of a pup as everything is knew to them, so they are very excitable.

The youngest that I recommend working with a puppy is six months. One problem that is fairly common in working with puppies or older dogs that have never had any training; puppies are often difficult to deal with because they have a short attention span and EVERYTHING distracts them because EVERYTHING is new.

So their distraction level if you were to graph it would be a series of spikes and valleys. This makes it difficult to find their working level, because it bounces around all over the place.

LOU CASTLE - FITTING THE ECOLLAR

From what I've read, the only reason the recommendation of over 6 months exists is because it is difficult, and honestly I think it has something to do with the recommendations from the manufacturers. All my dog has done is Sit, SAAD and Recall work. Every second day or so I refresh it so he remembers that he controls the stimulation. When he disobeys my recall (I think he is actually 7 months) I want to be ready with the e-collar... Rather than have him disobey me and I'm unable to correct it.

I don't know who Mike is, I can't find much in English on his work with the e-collar in google.

[FONT=Tahoma]I mentioned Lou to show that I am well aware of the procedure for using an Ecollar; as a matter of fact Lou uses an Ecollar on a much lower stim than the level you seem to be using. Just enough for the dog to flick an ear or scratch its neck when he experiences the stim; not enough to cause the dog discomfort or for the animal to whince. However, I still don’t agree for the reasons stated. I think using the collar too early has the potential to make the pup edgy which is a precursor to nervy and puts the pup under stress which is not what I want. A pup is under a certain level of stress naturally by experiencing new and (to it) unusual things; it becomes confident with different environmental experiences by socialisation, but I see no reason to heap more stress on it by using the Ecollar when training a new behaviour when I can get the pup to do what I require by making it enjoyable for it. I also think that if I can get this by these methods (food, praise etc) it produces a more reliable and confident dog when it matures which will in fact cope better with the Ecollar at 12 months. As I said, I don’t have a problem with the Ecollar after the dog is 12 months of age; I use one myself, but never on a pup.[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]Peter[/FONT]

I have just purchased a Leerburg DVD on remote collar training and he states he never uses the collar on continuous stimulation unless it is a life/ death/critical threatening situation. He states this method is old school and a much more humane method is to use the collar at low levels of stimulation for a correction purpose. This makes sense to me and the dog seems to react well when given a short low level stimulation as a correction and this would be much more benificial in training than the continous method.

I am by no means knowledgable in remote training but amcurrently investigating it as a tool. I also note in Victoria it is illegal to use one on a dog under 6 months of age. It is fine to use one in this state if the dog is given an all clear by a vet and the remote is used under the supervision of a dog trainer. Every state has different laws.

Originally Posted by Summit K9

[FONT=Tahoma]I mentioned Lou to show that I am well aware of the procedure for using an Ecollar; as a matter of fact Lou uses an Ecollar on a much lower stim than the level you seem to be using. Just enough for the dog to flick an ear or scratch its neck when he experiences the stim; not enough to cause the dog discomfort or for the animal to whince.[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]

He uses it on the same level I do, the lowest level the dog perceives. I never said I cause my dogs to whince, but if they feel it, then it's uncomfortable. If it wasn't uncomfortable for the dog then it wouldn't work. 15/127 is a pretty low level... I imagine that'll increase a bit as he gets older, but it might not.

However, I still don’t agree for the reasons stated. I think using the collar too early has the potential to make the pup edgy which is a precursor to nervy and puts the pup under stress which is not what I want.

This here is where & why we disagree, I feel using the e-collar combined with handler praise and food rewards creates less stress than just using positive reinforcement. I don't use the e-collar as a last resort & see no reason to.

Even though I think the dog experiences less stress, here is a question for you. What's better:
a) Lower stress for a longer period of time.
b) Higher stress for a shorter period of time.

A pup is under a certain level of stress naturally by experiencing new and (to it) unusual things; it becomes confident with different environmental experiences by socialisation

[/FONT][FONT=Tahoma]

I wouldn't use the e-collar in a new situation, unless I had to. When we go somewhere new I won't issue any commands nor take the leash off for the first few times. The only time it's been used so far is on our property.
[/FONT]

Bulldog: After seeing both Leerburgs method (I own his DVD as well) and the one I was taught by Steve @ K9Force (which is a similar method to the one Lou uses) I honestly think this way works better. I suggest either chating to Lou or purchasing Steves 50 page guide so you can compare the methods (or finding some other resource which explains the low stim method in detail) - Leerberg is actually referring to medium level stim and high level stim when he talks about continous being old school, low level stim is a relatively new concept, probably newer than the method he uses. Leerburg also uses a higher level than we use, he goes what the dog can perceive + some, we just do the lowest level the dog feels. Though different people find success using different methods.

I don't believe that a dog should be worked that young on an ecollar! What I think you should be doing IMO is shaping the behaviour with operant conditioning using either a clicker or food. Then using the ecollar to perfect with the position and time of the exercise. For example teaching the dog to come, once the dog understands the concept of come. He run to you sits on the ground at your feet. Using the collar to make the dog go from a slow run to a sprint and sit at your feet. The dog must have the behaviour shaped first other wise you are just shocking the dog till it does what you want without it knowing what behaviour you want. If the behaviour is shaped and the dog knows what is expected of him all that is left is perfecting it. Using operant conditioning I had my mal at 9 weeks with sit, drop, come. I'm about to start to tidy her up with the ecollar and she is 13 months now. I would never use an ecollar on a dog under 12 months I don't believe it is needed!

Hey Midol,

Yes I have actually been talking to Steve about ordering his book, etc and will be doing so in the near future. As I said I am just starting to investigate remote collar training and I have an open mind and a am willing to look at all options to ensure I can make a reliable choice.

Cheers

Steve