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Posative and Negative Punishment?
Hi Yellowbird
Yes I agree but i do thing that correction would be acceptable (because you are correcting a bad behavior. On the other hand a correction CAN'T be positive. Enforcement of a wanted behavior by giving the dog a reward of some kind is positive.
rewarding a wanted behavior (POSITIVE)
Correcting unwanted behavior (NEGATIVE)
you cant correct unwanted behavior positively
But i think that Jess has hit the nail on the head, when she said.
'its not meant to be positive as in good, and negative means bad. positive is to give, negative is to take. (like in maths)
So a positive punishment is to give something adverse, like a correction. it doesn't mean that you are giving something good or nice."
I think there there are people out there truing to CASH in on the whole idea of being positive and gentle, and buy twisting the words they have been able to convince public that buy giving a correction it is a positive.
So if you Analise this from a different perspective that would mean that if one of my Friends is acting badly by GIVING him a punch in the face and knocking his teeth out i would be giving a POSITIVE.
What a lot of nonsense I certainly would not perceive getting punched the same as getting some loving.
I know i am getting both but one is clearly positive in my books any way and the other is totally negative.
Sorry we seemed to have gone of the subject of pinch collars, but i do thing that the trouble with the people making those rules is. That they dint understand the positive and negative first and foremost, and then they are shown a device (PINCH COLLIER) and with even less understanding they make up rules.
Adam
quote
So if you Analise this from a different perspective that would mean that if one of my Friends is acting badly by GIVING him a punch in the face and knocking his teeth out i would be giving a POSITIVE.
I was going to use a similar example but you beat me to the punch,so to speak..
Cheers
Amy
But the 'act' of 'giving' is a +.
quote
What a lot of nonsense I certainly would not perceive getting punched the same as getting some loving.
I know i am getting both but one is clearly positive in my books any way and the other is totally negative.
Depends maybe some folks like being punched and Loved at the same time.
Just kidding, I agree actually..
Cheers
Amy
We could take this further and suggets that getting punched may indeed be a positive.... for the punch(er), if not the punch(ee)... I know snotting someone seems like an awfully positive way of dealing with some people to me sometimes. Unfortunately, working with kids, I have to set a positive example. AAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!
That said, we need to differentiate between the two types of correcting- like Jess said so well (mental note: remember Jess' maths theory) we have to be able to communicate a difference between an "adding" correction, and a "subtracting" one....
Thus, if "positive" and "negative" dont work for all of the above reasons.... anyone got a better suggestion?
(sorry about getting way off topic)
Its all so damn confusing, it took me months to get my head around it all. and still it confuses me (unless i have the little chart thing in front of me)
I completely understand what Adam is saying, as it makes full sense, how can a punishment be a positive. this is the way i thought for months, and still do
But i now also understand the way they mean positive to be.
And like you said Adam it is probably just a way of re-marketing it for the public.
Cheers, Jess
"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion" - Unknown
I agree totally, Adam's exactly right. I just think the issue is between the professional practice "jargon" which we, as doggy people have chosen to learn and comprehend, versus the "colloquial" understanding of the general public which is exaggerated and used by those who tout propaganda as empirical information.Originally Posted by kalexte
I completely understand what Adam is saying, as it makes full sense, how can a punishment be a positive. this is the way i thought for months, and still do
But i now also understand the way they mean positive to be.
And like you said Adam it is probably just a way of re-marketing it for the public.
(and the only alternatives I could come up with for "positive" and "negative" were, if anything, WORSE!)
in my understanding, positive is when you provide something to the environment in which the dog is training (so you yank the chain, that is positive, you've added the pain to the equation) and negative is removing something from the environment in which the dog is training. So negative punishment is not giving the treat, whereas positive punishment is providing the pain by yanking the chain.
Agree with the above post. Nice and simple .
E collar is not on the poll I only just noticed.....
Sanda have you recently done a Delta course or doing one? Honest question, not haveing a dig if you have.
You mention pain in the equation in dog training, I disagree with that as it is fairly broad. Your correction should not be more than what is needed. Example: Softer dogs softer correction, harder dogs harder correction, but the correction is not there to deliver pain. ( again broad). If the corrections are not having an effect then you change equipment.
Good subject though should make it into a seperate thread.
Vendo.
------ TALK IS CHEAP.... SHOW US YOUR DOG
www.workingdutchshepherds.com.au
www.qldsecuritysolutions.com.au
Yeah, I agree, it was a bad choice of words, but at the time I did use it on purpose simply to demonstrate that a 'positive' and a 'negative' dont relate to positive association or negative association for the dog in this type of jargon. Positive training can be the one that involves correction and has negative associations for the dog.
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