Thread: Posative and Negative Punishment?

Man, this is just one of the reasons I seek out dog forums from different countries- to learn. Not just tricks, suggestions, methods used, but also the cultural differences. When I first read this thread, I was taken back a bit that ya'll's government actually regulates which pieces of training equipment you are allowed to use. Personally, like most have stated here, it depends on the dog for me and what type of training I am doing. With my current partner (a high drive, high titration mal), a pinch is standard equipment. Ironically, I haven't used an e-collar on him once (kind of a challenge for me to train him old school). That isn't to say that an e-collar might have created results faster, I just wanted to be stubborn with this dog. I do use them on others I train though and find them to be a godsend WHEN USED PROPERLY. Perhaps our definitions are just different, but I think all this positive / negative talk translates to the differences in compulsion training and escape/evasive training. The difference can be seen using the e-collar as an example. In the compulsion definition, one would use the e-collar to "zap" the dog when he didn't follow the command (such as "out"). With the escape training method, the levels that the dog responds to are discovered, and when the dog is told to out, he is "zapped" with the higher end of the the dog's titration level, the once he outs, the dog is called to the handler (in the case of a recall to the handler) and he is "zapped" in the medium range of the dog's "target zone" and once he gets to the handler is told to heel as the level is dropped to the lower end of the target zone until he heels and the handler lets off the e-collar completely. What happens is the dog learns quickly what he has to do to escape the e-collar. The important factor is that it must be understood that the handler/trainer has to find the dog's "titration target zone". In other words, the handler must find the lowest power setting possible to gain compliance. Often times, one would be surprised how low of a setting the dog actually requires. Just my opinion. Love ya'll's forum. Good to talk to folks in the "Deep South"- er, South of the Equator.

[QUOTE=Vendo Vincent;6479]

You mention pain in the equation in dog training, I disagree with that as it is fairly broad. Your correction should not be more than what is needed. Example: Softer dogs softer correction, harder dogs harder correction, but the correction is not there to deliver pain. ( again broad). If the corrections are not having an effect then you change equipment.



"pain" is still the delivering positive. It is semantics really as we are discussing the "correction" which is a form of pain in either a little amount or harder amount. It is a interesting discussion though slightly off topic.

Edited for double posting.

OK You're talking about Operant Conditioning

Positive Reinforcement - behavior strengthened due to experiencing something good for it (eg reward like tug, food, pat etc)

Negative Reinforcement - behavior strengthened due to the animal no longer experiencing the unpleasant experience (eg e-collars held on until animal shows wanted behavior)


****
there are Primary Reinforcers (those which the animal innately sees as a reinforcer like food) and Conditioned Reinforcers which we as the trainer teach the dog to utilise as reinforcement for the behavior (tug toy, ball etc)****


Negative Punishment - now, the behavior is attempting to be decreased by following with removal of an appetitive (or really really good) stimulus.

Positive Punishement - the behavior is attempting to be decreased by following with the application of an aversive stimulus. (eg check chain correction)

An aversive does not need to mean pain - sometimes a simple ARRHH NO, loud noise etc can be an aversive to a dog.

This relates to Operant Responses, which are behaviors able to be modified by their consquences. You can either reinforce them in order to get them to occur more often/on command or punish them in order to decrease their chance of occuring, most people ultimately wanting 'extinction' which means the behavior in that situation does not show anymore.

Hope this makes things clearer for people. This is the general international consensus for the terms.



As for 'purely positive' training ... that is a marketing term. Some still use aversives (voice etc) Negative Punishment (withhold reward for non compliance/bad behaviour) the highly stressful use of 'time-outs', and equipment like head halters/no pull harnesses that constantly provide a sensation on sensitive parts of the dog and then a POSITIVE PUNISHMENT in the way of discomfort if the dog pulls. It can be the long way round the short path really but it makes the tree huggers feel better.

Its just Terminology:

Positive: To give or administer something ie: A correction

Negative: To remove something ie: Remove a reward Food/Ball/Tug toy

Positive Reinforcement/Negative Reinforcement

Positive Punishment/Negative Punishment