What Equipment do you use during training??

BlackDog · 06-03-2009, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by VIPSS

Hey guys

I use Prong collar in Queensland to walk my dog on the street (depending on a dog), And due to some by passers comments that that collar is illegal i actually rang the RSPCA and asked if there is a law or piece of legislation that i could see in writing to tell me that the prong collar is illegal.

Well i was transfered to about 10 different people from 10 different RSPCA departments, and finally I was told that NO THEY ARE NOT ILLEGAL but RSPCA does not condone the use of it.

Furthermore i was told that the use of the pinch collar meant that i train my dog with a negative correction

. So I asked is there such a thing as a positive correction). The reply was i don't know i am not a dog person and i don't know anything about training, so you should go to a trainer.

All I want to say if you want to know for sure (I am am not saying that you haven't checked it out or that any one here doesn't have it in writing), but ask the authorities to send you a hard copy or ask where is it written so that you can check it out.

If i didn't do that I would have been convinced here in Queensland that prong collar was illegal as so many people told me so. Even some from the RSPCA.

Adam

According to some obedience training books i have come across (and i will go dig it out and find the info) there is such thing as negative correction, positive correction, negative punishment and positive punishment...
Bit hard to get your head around at first because of the way it is all explained...

I have always used what i think is going to work for that particular dog and the behaviour or training i am after. I dont care what people say or think, because they are the ones that do not understand the use of the equipment.

**Jess Rhodes** · 06-03-2009, 12:47 PM

Blackdog - What you are speaking of is what is called the "Matrix" or the "Motivational Matrix"
To try and get your head around it, Positive is to give something, Negative is to take something away, Punishment will make the behaviour less likely to occur or less frequently, and Reinforcement will make the behaviour more likely to occur or more frequently.
+Reinforcement is something like a treat or reward, and is desirable to the dog,
+Punishment is a correction, and is undesirable to the dog,
-Reinforcement is removing something undesirable, like pressuring the dog to comply, then when it does taking the pressure away,
-Punishment is removing the treat ir reward, when the dog does not comply.
+P and -R are compulsive methods (forcing the dog to do the behaviour)
+R and -P are inducive methods(the dog is not pressured and the response is voluntary)

I hope that all makes sense

if it doesn't i also have a chart of it, but am not quite sure whether its copy writted or not.

VIPSS · 06-03-2009, 02:07 PM

Hi all its me again

As I understand things, There is no positive corection at all.

If you are corecting something it means to me that there is unwanted responce or behaviour. How is it posible to be positive and corect something?

You cant say NO -thats negative
You cant jerk on the coller - that is negative
You cant deprive the dog of liberty and lock it up in the crate - thats negative

you cant take the toy away - thats negative

So the term Positive corection is false and contridicting

And in case any one objects let me put to you a scenario.

Lets just say that you have a 9 Year old son who is also death and you cant reason with him (just to make things eaven) so the only way you can comunicate with him is through tuch and facial expresions.

Now to drive the point home lets just say that he relives himself in the middle of your living room. Now you have shown him the toilet and he has been trained but he still does it in the middle of the living room any time he wants to.

How are you going to POSITIVLY CORRECT that how can you give him POSITIVE responce to that to make him understand that this is not allowed.

I hope this will not ofend any one, as I had no one in minde when i wrote this it is simply a scenario i use when some one tries to tell me about POSITIVE CORECTION.

Adam

**Jess Rhodes** · 06-03-2009, 02:13 PM

Hi Adam,
its not meant to be positive as in good, and negative means bad. positive is to give, negative is to take. (like in maths)
So a positive punishment is to give something adversive, like a correction. it doesn't mean that you are giving something good or nice.

VIPSS · 06-03-2009, 02:28 PM

Hi Jess

I agree with your way of puting things, it is just when the RSPCA people heard that i was using a pinch collar they told me. "that means that you are using Negative corection, well you should be using positively corecting your dog" that didnt make sence to me and I question the whole thing of using the word "Positive" In a negatine sence.

adam

BlackDog · 06-03-2009, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by drew mac

A question along this line. Are there many people clicker training their working dogs? I started this with my bitch as a pup and have only used it with the obedience. Not as much now that she is 13 month. Just checking out other peoples thoughts?

Thanks Drew

I used a clicker for obedience and focus as a marker on a young female pup i had, but i only used it till she knew the commands etc. Worked a treat!

**Jo Buttner** · 06-04-2009, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by VIPSS

Hi Jess

I agree with your way of puting things, it is just when the RSPCA people heard that i was using a pinch collar they told me. "that means that you are using Negative corection, well you should be using positively corecting your dog" that didnt make sence to me and I question the whole thing of using the word "Positive" In a negatine sence.

adam

Adam and Jess: you're both soooooo right! I have that matrix about somewhere, too, and will post it if I can. As a psychologist, and as behaviourists (dog or human) the terminology often has more than one meaning: the jargon, and the colloquial. Not only do I have trouble (still) with getting my head around positive and negative, but there's also plenty of confusion out there about the term "punishment". Even though we sometimes use "correction" as a substitute for "punishment", technically, we should be calling it "punishment" and upsetting folks (the "Wincers") everywhere!!

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