Thread: Fake pedigrees in Malinois

Hi Invictus,

Will anything come of having papers that are not real? eg deregistered?

Or does it have to do with the breeding and being able to breed better dogs?

I know a blood test can be done to tell what they have in them(breeds), and I know after many generations a breed can be made a pedigree.
Do either of these look like something in the future?

I am just wanting to know...

I see dogs at all levels needed in our lives. Some of us only need a dog to scare, others need dogs that will go all out and all in between fit into their areas. Which makes them all great dogs.

I love learning about all the breeds here, some I'd like to try and others not but without here I wouldn't hear about them to know. So I thank you all for sharing even though sometimes it gets a little lost.

kind regards Ena

Hi Ena

I will just add a little bit on the whole thing of crossing out.

Back in the day it was allowed and accepted to cross breed a pure bread dog whether it was a shepherd or a Mal or whatever.
Following that if you bread the dogs back to the pure bread for four generations then it was considered that the dogs where pure bread again.

As to KNPV and Ring Sports Ena.

There is quite a number of pure bread registered dogs that are winning these sports and there is no need to buy a cross bred dog.

But like you said some ones needs might differ to others and each to their own.
What one considers to be tough others see as normal.

But we all cant handle the same quality of dogs so we need all dogs as they will find their owner who will think of them as the best.

I am glad that you like the post and are getting some good information from it.

Adam

Originally Posted by eatz

Hi Invictus,

Will anything come of having papers that are not real? eg deregistered?

Or does it have to do with the breeding and being able to breed better dogs?

I know a blood test can be done to tell what they have in them(breeds), and I know after many generations a breed can be made a pedigree.
Do either of these look like something in the future?

I am just wanting to know...

I see dogs at all levels needed in our lives. Some of us only need a dog to scare, others need dogs that will go all out and all in between fit into their areas. Which makes them all great dogs.

I love learning about all the breeds here, some I'd like to try and others not but without here I wouldn't hear about them to know. So I thank you all for sharing even though sometimes it gets a little lost.

kind regards Ena

Nothing will come of the false pedigrees as the problem is too far gone now. To pull all pedigrees would destroy the FCI Malinois as we know it today. The unregistered NVBK and KNPV dogs however would continue on as they are.
From what I have been told is that DNA testing will happen and that is why it has taken so long to get going. The kennel clubs dont want to have to deal with the truth, and that is that every single Mali is caught up in it.

Your totally correct that having different bloodlines is good, as not everyone wants what I do. Also people have different opinions of what "hard" might be for instance. But it is very naive to think that all dogs are created equal. There is differences between the bloodlines, and there is good and bad from all of them. But, they are different and on average give particular types of dogs. Rather than arguing it, people need to go out and see it.

quote
Also people have different opinions of what "hard" might be for instance. But it is very naive to think that all dogs are created equal. There is differences between the bloodlines, and there is good and bad from all of them. But, they are different and on average give particular types of dogs. Rather than arguing it, people need to go out and see it.

This is amongst most breeds IMO, more prevalent in Breeds with a working History behind them,as to the "levels" of potential and genes that form our pedigree's whether that be FCI or other.

It is interesting to see such variety in the Breeds,as some will act what is quite 'typical' of a Breed standard.Though dogs with a closer heritage with working/sporting ability in the pedigree are quite different to those not.Now we get the variances on high,med,low with the animals drives but it is quite clear that bloodlines and genetics is the foundation of what potential you really have and no piece of paper or paper will ever disguise this at the end of the day.

Amy

Hi Amy

I totaly agree but there is one more thing to consider all the pure bread dogs come from mongrels originaly.

I dont think that the GSD or the DOBE or the ROTTIE was made by GOD and pure.

Even after the WWII in europe cirtain countries crossed GSD beck to the Wolf dogs. In Holland in order to establish the dutch Shepherd they allowed them to breed to malinois to the dutchies and the black pups where concidered as a dutche and the faun as a mal.

So as history goes all breeds come from the selective breeding to create a cirtain trate and look.

But once the looks and trate is unique and can be reproduced by breeding the same type, then i belive that we have a pure bread dog.

So why and who would bother to go back to adam and eve days to see who was the ancestor of my dog for me four generations back is planty.
If in these generations all i have is word champions and winers of a particular sport I would be happie if the pupie displays same.

I dont think that any further has any baring on anything after all if you go back six or seven generations the persantage of one dogs influance is so minute that it rearly dosent matter.

to me the last four generations is more then planty after all each dog in the forth generation contributes only 6.15% so if you look at that it is a minority.


Adam

LOL... sooo true Adam.

Try pointing that out in the DOL forum, and they will ban you. A member of this forum, pointed out in DOL that most pedigree dogs are mixed breeds. They are not in the true sense of the word "purebreed". He was immediately banned for having that opinion.

I think this is a conversation that could go on forever..

Originally Posted by Delkerabo

quote
Also people have different opinions of what "hard" might be for instance. But it is very naive to think that all dogs are created equal. There is differences between the bloodlines, and there is good and bad from all of them. But, they are different and on average give particular types of dogs. Rather than arguing it, people need to go out and see it.

This is amongst most breeds IMO, more prevalent in Breeds with a working History behind them,as to the "levels" of potential and genes that form our pedigree's whether that be FCI or other.

It is interesting to see such variety in the Breeds,as some will act what is quite 'typical' of a Breed standard.Though dogs with a closer heritage with working/sporting ability in the pedigree are quite different to those not.Now we get the variances on high,med,low with the animals drives but it is quite clear that bloodlines and genetics is the foundation of what potential you really have and no piece of paper or paper will ever disguise this at the end of the day.

Amy

The Mali has some great differences between the bloodlines, for obvious reasons. In the GSD world you have 95% of these dogs undergoing IPO/SchH nowdays. Prior to that we had basically the West and the East dogs. They had differences because they were bred each one side of the wall. So they ended up getting two very different types of dogs, both in character and conformation.
With the Malis we dont have a physical wall, but we have the different dogsports. The NVBK requires a certain type of dog and for decades they have bred around their program. In Holland and France they have also bred around their programs (KNPV and French Ring) and so they have developed different types of dogs. Also the French have had the problem of only breeding to FCI dogs, as FR is controlled by the Kennel Clubs. NVBK and KNPV are not controlled by the FCI.
Whereas with the GSD for instance they have now changed their program (SchH) to suit their dogs.
Some also say that one big difference with the KNPV is that in IPO they train around their dogs, meaning softer dogs have training to suit them as seen in dogs like Yagus, whereas in the KNPV they bred around their training. The Dutch are generally tougher handlers and the program is very difficult and taxing to the dogs, so they tend to breed a tougher dog to put up with them and their system.
Of course their are exceptions to the rules, but for the most part we have found this to be true.

Hi Mark

LOL..... Thats funy

Yes I agree that some people live in denail and some people Dont want to hear a diferent point of view.

Adam

Originally Posted by Top Dog

LOL... sooo true Adam.

Try pointing that out in the DOL forum, and they will ban you. A member of this forum, pointed out in DOL that most pedigree dogs are mixed breeds. They are not in the true sense of the word "purebreed". He was immediately banned for having that opinion.

I think this is a conversation that could go on forever..

Its true that they are all mixed breeds, and some like the Malinois and Dutchie are even more so, even today.
So a pedigree in Malis is nothing more than a passport to undertake events put on by the kennel clubs, it certainly isnt there for someone to know the heritage of their dogs.