THE FOLLOWING FEATURE ARTICLE IS A REPRINT FROM
THE INFORMATIVE WORKING DOG MAGAZINE JUNE 1999

(Owned and run by Evan Harbalis from Von Ultimate Kennels)
Thanks goes out to Evan (Non Classical Dogs)

TRAINERS: ROGER PEETERS & JAN KOKX

This interview was conducted by my close and dear friend Paul Howell USA.......

This interview is with Mr. Roger Peeters. Roger is a working police officer with over 20 years experience as a dog trainer and handler. Roger has trained many dogs to the Schutzhund III level with the majority competing constantly at the 290-plus point level. He has been three times Vice-Belgian Champion, twice selected for the Belgian team (in 1986, he had 98/99/92 at the World Championships and was predicted to win, but his dog lost 7 points in the blinds).
He also trains police dogs for patrol as well as narcotics and explosives. Roger is well versed in training the Belgian Malinois. Roger breeds under the kennel name. Von Weiss Sandgruben. A dog from his breeding was just selected for the Belgium team this year with a score of 100/99/100 at a qualification trial. Roger is called by other European trainers "Mr. Golden Hands" because he seems to be able to get the best out of any dog.

Accompanying Roger is world-renowned helper Jan Kokx. Jan has titled over 20 dogs to the Schutzhund III level. He is considered to be the best training decoy in Belgium, if not in the world. He is sought after by many Europeans to test and evaluate their young dogs. He is magnificent and something to see at work. It is as if he can talk with the animals like Dr. Doolittle, he certainly knows how to dance with the dogs.

He and Roger are the ones who developed the Belgian training system that has brought home so many world titles. In fact, the Belgians call it The Kokx System. Jan breeds with Roger under the kennel name Von Zweir, they produced Nero v Zweir, who was third placed in 1993 with 96/96/96. He is also the trainer of Nestle vH Antverpa.

P H: Roger, you have been here one week working dogs with Americans. What can you say that will help us to understand your system better?

PEETERS: It seems like, from what I have seen, a lot of your people want to train all of your dogs the same way. They must take care because all dogs are different and must be treated this way. You want the end result from each dog to be the same, but you cannot use the same methods to achieve this.

Bitework In America

P H: What about the bitework training that you have seen?

PEETERS: I have seen people from 15 or 20 of
your American states here and it seems most use too much whip with the young dogs; they are much too fast to teach the dog defense and, as you could see when Jan worked the dogs, their grips were, for the most part, not so good. By the time we were finished in the week we were here, the grips were like alligators. You must use more prey to develop the bites of your dogs. You must have completely full, hard bites before you go on with further training.

P H: I guess you are saying that we try to put the cart before the horse; we want to teach too much too fast.

PEETERS: Yes, definitely. A lot of the people here seem to want to work on the out too fast. This is incorrect. It is so easy to teach the out. I have never seen a dog in the 25 years that Jan and I have been training together that we could not teach to out easily.

P H: But many Americans think you must use a lot of defense, especially for the police dogs. But what you are saying is that all of the training is done the same?

PEETERS: Yes. It is bullshit that you must make a dog crazy to make him a police dog. All of my police dogs are trained the same way as my competition dogs. When we finish the training, then I decide which dog I want to work for police work.

P H: Why have the Belgians had so much success with high-scoring high -drive dogs? And it seems that you always are scoring 99 and 100 in obedience and protection.

PEETERS: We have learned from our mistakes. We have made the same mistakes that the people in America are making now. We are open to any system, but show us the results. If it is better than ours, then we will be glad to use it. Jan is responsible for developing the system that helps all of our dogs to score so high in protection. I, along with Jan, developed the type of obedience training that we do. If I noticed one thing with most of the American handlers, is they cannot show too much affection to their dogs. They never seem to get excited until the dog is doing good. They only get excited and tell the dog when he is doing badly.

Why All Your Success?

P H: Are you breeding better dogs? Are your trainers better or are your helpers better? What is the reason for all your success you guys are reaching?

PEETERS: It has to do with our training system. We like to use the ball and we want dogs that are bred to work. We like dogs that are speeding, not slow show dogs, but fast, hard, intelligent dogs that are bred to work not just look beautiful and sit in someone's home. We also, I feel, have the best helpers in the world. As you have seen with Jan's work, he is something to behold.

P H: Yes, this little fellow is unbelievable. People have left here in awe of his abilities and of his athletic prowess. He was without a doubt the best human I have ever seen with a sleeve on his arm.

PEETERS: That is true. As I said before, we use whatever we need to motivate the dog, whether it is food, the ball, or a toy. The dog must be kept in high drive. We simply use whatever it takes to motivate our dogs in all phases of work. But without a doubt, the ball is our number one training device.

Motivational Obedience

P H: But Roger, you told us that a lot of dogs in your country are fully obedience trained by the time they are 12 months old, and you were complaining that our dogs have very little obedience when they are 2 years old.

PEETERS: Yes, we like to start with ball training our young dogs with some basic obedience. Of course, we will finish the obedience when they are a little older with corrections, but it makes training much easier and you use much less force if you use motivational obedience with your dogs when they are as young.

Pushed Hard Early

P H: What about the tracking of the young dogsyou saw here?

PEETERS: It was the same. Simply, good dogs
that everybody tried to push too fast. I don't know why there is so much hurry in America with the dogs, I think it is because the clubs are so far apart and you must travel great distances to work your dogs. In my country, if I must travel 20 miles to work dogs, I consider that too far. As you know, within a 30-mile radius of my club are all of the top clubs in Belgium. With obedience, a lot of the people work too long. Five or 10 minutes is enough. If you will break or ruin your dog, it will be in obedience so please take care of this matter and try to train much faster, use some speed. You can use some hard correction, but use more speed and more rewards. But you must make your dogs fast in obedience and you do this by working obedience fast; fast rewards, fast correction.

"Top Breeding Program"

P H: You have seen a lot of good dogs here also. You have seen Peggy v Akabar, she is only 2-1/2 and Schutzhund III many times. You must admit there were some great dogs here.

PEETERS: Oh, for sure. You had one man, Mr. Chip Weis, who I think may have the top breeding program, not only in America, but in the world. I know of no one with the quality of dogs that he has in his breeding program. He has the top working bloodlines in the world and the best proven brood bitches known. In fact, Jan and I are getting puppies from his "Nessel" daughter which he will breed with Gary Hanrahan's dog "Pirol." He also has the best "Roby" son I have ever known to come to America. The dog they call "Charlie", this is a real stud dog, man. Without a doubt, I think he is the best Roby Glockieneck son to ever come over here. I know of no one in Europe with this much quality in one place.

Best Working Bloodline

P H: Roger, what in your opinion is the top working bloodline today?

PEETERS: I must say, Link Muikenshof, a Jago v Nesselbach son, at a qualifier a month ago in my country, eight of the top 10 dogs were "Link" sons. I also like to see Dasso v Bodelschwingher Schloss, he produces excellently. I also like to see some East German dogs. I like to use some Lord Gleisdriek to help with the hips and to make the head wider and the muzzle shorter. "Sagus" and Grief" are excellent in the pedigree. Mainly I just don't like to see show blood.
What is important is the short, wide muzzle. It really helps in the power of the biting. But I have never seen a dog that produces like Link. These dogs are very clear in the head and love the work. Let me say one thing, never try to cross working and show bloodlines. It will only lead to disaster! You have more of a chance of winning a $25 million lottery than getting a good dog from show lines.

Easily Famous Means…….

P H: Roger, I must say that it has been a pleasure working with you and Jan. It has been quite different than working with the other Belgians we have had.

PEETERS: First, we are trainers, no more, no less. We love the German Shepherd and we love the sport. Many people become famous easily. They give a puppy to a top handler and he wins with the dog. This does not mean that the breeder can train anything, only that the dog had a good trainer.

P H: You brought Jan Kokx with you. He has amazed everyone. He is not a child but he works for 12 hours in 90-degree weather and still wants to work more. He has given us many laughs with his humor as well as teaching us his methods of which, I must say, he is a doctor of dog training.

PEETERS: As you can see, Jan is an experienced man, No one has to tell him anything. He is the father of our system. We call it the Kokx System. Mike Weiss Sandgruben just scored 100/99/100 and I give the credit to Jan because he and his system are responsible.

As Good As Any

P H: Roger, what do you think of our top handlers?

PEETERS: They are as good as any in the world. You have Gary Hanrahan and many others like Glen Bennett from California, who was second in the world. These are top handlers anywhere and I am sure there are many more. And I think that it is very much a shame that you live so very far from people who like to train and you cannot get a good club started. Your knowledge of working dog pedigrees is unbelievable and your ability to read the dogs and immediately see their problems is like maybe you are from Belgium, ha, ha. But I must say that I have seen very few people who can read dogs with the same ability that you have.

P H: Thank you very much Roger. Now I would like to talk with Jan.

PEETERS: Okay. But I must say that you have some excellent dogs and you have been lucky buying them. But I am afraid that this will stop because of the Japanese. They will pay five times what the Americans pay for a dog.

Spare The Whip

P H: Jan, you wore the sleeve, you worked the dogs, now tell us from the horse's mouth, tell us about what you have seen of the dogs in America.

KOKX: Too much damn whip! Especially on the young dogs. The whip is a very important instrument for the decoy, but my God, you people have over used it. Many of the young dog's bites were really shit, man, and it is because they were trying to make the dog too aggressive at a young age. I must say that it is easier to start with a high-caliber dog to begin with, and a lot of Americans seem to buy a puppy and train with it for many years, whether it can do the work or not.

P H: What were some of the other problems that you saw?

KOKX: I must say that there was not a lot of feeling with most of the handlers in obedience. It seems like they have a hard time saying to the dog, "Good boy!" They must say it very loudly and with some enthusiasm. They must make the dogs happier. As you have seen, we correct the dogs much harder than you Americans, but we make them immediately happy. With many of the guys here, there was hardly any difference between good and bad.

Major Decoy Problems

P H: You tried to teach the decoys to be better. What were some of the major problems we had?

KOKX: The biggest mistake they made is that they simply do not know how to work the dogs in prey. They don't know how to improve the grip. They are working too hard to do something that is so simple. They work all of the dogs the same, and this is wrong. They must learn to work the dogs step by step until the dog is complete. Also, learn to use some screaming and voice in the helper work. Remember, we are not training sissies. A good helper must be able to read the dog at all moments.

P H: When do you start your dogs in bitework?

KOKX: When they tell me they are ready. They will tell you; some at 6 months, some at 3 months, some are never ready. You also must work to make your dogs faster in the bite. You do this by making them miss. I also would like to see smaller decoys. Most of the decoys you had here were big enough to play professional football. It looked like these guys were a wrestling team. That doesn't mean they cannot be good decoys, only that they must work harder. Remember one thing. Americans: No show bloodlines; stay in the working lines.

Lines He Doesn't Like

P H: Well, while we are speaking of bloodlines, what others don't you care for?

KOKX: Harro aus der Lechraistadt; I don't like this dog. He makes good obedience dogs, but they are not hard enough. They look good but the bark is much worse than the bite. A dog must not only bite full, he must bite hard. Also the DDR bloodlines I love but you must take care. Sometimes they are too aggressive and this can make for dangerous dogs. You must reach a good balance in your breeding. If you do not, you will have problems in the end. I like Roby Glockineck in some instances, but it must be the right dog like Pirol, Gary's dog, or Charlie, Chip's dog. I also think that Lion v Maletesta is a super stud dog in America. He can produce some extremely hard dogs. But we also must remember "Fero". This is a producer as well as "Fax".

Roby Lines: Missing

P H: Jan, what about the females?

KOKX: They are more important than the males. I know you Americans don't believe this, but ask any European breeder and he will tell you that without the female, he has nothing. Good females make stud dogs famous. Like Roby, his bloodlines are used more in America than in Europe. I think it is because people like you and Chip Weis have gotten all of the Roby bloodlines out from under our noses without us knowing it. Now we must come here and get Roby in our pedigree. Like my dog "Nessel," "Dolly," his mother, is what made him, not his father.

P H: Jan, what do you think of the KNPV?

KOKX: It's okay. It is a test for the Malinois. I like the Malinois, it is not really for the German Shepherd. I see from ads in America that people make big claims about KNPV German Shepherd dogs but these dogs were never famous in Holland.
I don't understand this. Remember, not one dog makes a breeder when you have one dog win the World Championship and the rest from this kennel fail.

P H: What do you think of your trip to America?

KOKX: I must say, I have never been happier. I have learned from you people and I hope that you have been able to learn from us. You are a good friend to Roger and I, and if you need anything from us, please call. I cannot wait until I come back to visit with you and your family. I hope the boys from Tennessee have learned something. They were very nice men who could ask to many questions; they are so eager to learn. They asked me many times, "What is the secret?" There is no secret, man; only hard work with good dogs.

P H : I want to thank both of you for your expertise and to invite you back in November for our next seminar.