Thread: Success rates when breeding.

[=Monika Kawecki;16424]In the big malinois thred someone posted that a dog named Elgos has had 451 matings.
I nearly fell of the chair when I read that!

My question is - what do you consider a good success rate in producing dogs?

Being involved in showing and having owned one the most famous show dogs in last 10 years I can give you some stats. And would like to compare this to what breeders (and dog owners) consider being sucessfull producer.

My dog has studed 7 or 8 times. On average 8 pups so thats aprox 60 pups all up.
Out of them there were from memory 12 champions, 1 grand champion ( 10 times the champion) and one nearly a grand champion.
There were few additional dogs that were on the way to their championship and didnt finish it for some other reason - such as owners lack of interest.
And there were several that could have easily been shown and titled but there was noone interested in doing it so they were sold as pets and never seen again, so to speak. So lets say its a 25% sucess rate.

So when I come back to that Elgos dog and say that from his 451 matings at an average of 6 pups (less for malinois) that would be 2700 pups.
At the 25% sucess rate - which for such famous dog I would consider low, there should be 675 totally awesome dogs, to continue his lines. Not grand kids, just his kids.

Were there? Does anyone know?

I know that most people in here dont care (or are even against) showing, but I wanted to do a bit of a hypothetical comparison.

If you are a breeder, or have a very good stud dog what do you consider good sucess?
50%? 10%? 100%?
I dont think that 100% is achieveable, as something will always crop up, the floppy ear, the bit weaker hips, the wrong coat, fear of loud noises etc.[/]

Hi Monika,

For the record, I am not against showing at all, a dog display is good working or showing, but what I am against is people breeding working dogs for conformation only and disregarding the character and temperament of the dog and calling them "champions". If you bought a champion working dog you would expect to be able to train and work that dog for what the breed is supposed to be able to achieve and if you can't, the dog is not a "champion's" bootlace. I talk GSD's as it's the breed I know, but picture this:

Someone looks through the breed standards and thinks excellent, a GSD is exactly what I need and buys a pup from "champion" parents on the belief that a "champion" should have a high level of the required breed traits. Begins to train the pup to find out it won't chase a ball and doesn't have enough drive to be disobedient???. In effect, the buyer is a victim of a con job from breed mismanagement that the show fraternity has caused being one problem that exists. It's not the showing, it's the mentality that drives the majority of show people is what annoys me about them. IMHO a show is a display of dogs that comply with the breed standard and a "champion" is the best example of the breed in it's entirety.

Cheers
Nev

Nev - althought your post is totally off topic, it brought a tought to my mind.
perhaps the show title of a champion should be more specific and be clearly displayed as a SHOW Champion.

There is a title of an Obediecne Champion and a Tracking Champion.
Agility have Masters as the highest.

So maybe rather then assuming what a word champion means it should be specified that its a show?
Do you think that general public that are buying a puppy from a "champion" assume it is working champion? Obediecne champion, tracking or herding champion, of do they think its a champion in everything?

I think that the public that knows nothing about sports and titles as the first thing might consider the dog to be a "champion in obedience"

But then what do they think when it comes to lets say a Champion hound of some sort? Would they think its a lure coursing champion????

So maybe those tht get angry at shows should campain to have the title of a champion changed to show champion, or looks champion, or whatever you think would be suitable.

Back on topic - what do you think is a sucessfull stud dog? what does he have to produce for people to say WOW about him?
Same for the bitch of course.
Out of 10 puppies what would you expect?

A herding dog that is a herding champion (malinois and GSD are herding breeds, should have those titles!) should be producing herding champions I imagine.

[=Monika Kawecki;16426]Nev - althought your post is totally off topic, it brought a tought to my mind.
perhaps the show title of a champion should be more specific and be clearly displayed as a SHOW Champion.

There is a title of an Obediecne Champion and a Tracking Champion.
Agility have Masters as the highest.

So maybe rather then assuming what a word champion means it should be specified that its a show?
Do you think that general public that are buying a puppy from a "champion" assume it is working champion? Obediecne champion, tracking or herding champion, of do they think its a champion in everything?

I think that the public that knows nothing about sports and titles as the first thing might consider the dog to be a "champion in obedience"

But then what do they think when it comes to lets say a Champion hound of some sort? Would they think its a lure coursing champion????

So maybe those tht get angry at shows should campain to have the title of a champion changed to show champion, or looks champion, or whatever you think would be suitable.

Back on topic - what do you think is a sucessfull stud dog? what does he have to produce for people to say WOW about him?
Same for the bitch of course.
Out of 10 puppies what would you expect?

A herding dog that is a herding champion (malinois and GSD are herding breeds, should have those titles!) should be producing herding champions I imagine.[/]

Monika, you are missing the point completely and putting your "show mentality" interpretation on it which is incorrect. Where does it say in the breed standards that a dog should be capable of showing as a breed requirement and where can you show a GSD under SV ruling that can't pass the breed survey which includes a protection routine and character assessment???. If the dog doesn't measure up to a particular criteria, it gets sent home and doesn't compete regardless of it's conformation. What use is a working dog having champion conformation which otherwise doesn't have a brain it's head, and what's the point of breeding one to produce more incompetent working dogs with half the required traits missing.

Cheers
Nev

Thanks Craig.
Rex was a very solid nerved dog, nothing ever bothered him. I used to take him to watch fireworks on Australia Day at Darling Harbour in super tight crowd and he couldnt care less about anything. He was my first dog and I had no idea about drives and training and was shown how to train in drive when he was about 5-6 years old.
Here is a video I took of him after short time of doing training with a ball as a reward, he was 6 in this video and had my pathetic training done to him for few months. Lets not forget that this dog was never trained to work, was punished for majority of his life for chasing things (such as birds) and had a handler tht had NO IDEA about training, until he was over 5.

YouTube - Fun Fun Fun

I loved that dog, and he will for ever be in my heart as an awesome aminal, as he provided for me thousand times more then I evr expected from him.

Nev and Adam - Im not comparying MY DOG to some other dog. I used him as an example to show what he produced and in the area I know well.
But we can use a bull that is bred for meat as an example or a slug that eats lettuce producing slugs eating tomatoe leafes if you wish.

And 451 puppies v's litters makes a lot more sense, thanks for clarification.

Also I wish you guys jsut got off my case about the shows. I support the working dogs, I just have expereince and knowledge about shows. Im all for having tememrament tests and health checks alongside shows for all dogs of all breeds.
And having said that that would include herding for malinois! together with conformation, and together with courage tests and hip scores done before the dog is bred from.

But in Australia that doesnt exist, its not my fault!!! you want it changed do something about it, instead of going on that I have a "show mentality"
dont put me in the same basket as most show people as Im not!

And I think that the show GSD in Australia is a dissaster.