Thread: East European Shepherd aka Russian German Shepherd

[=adam VIPSS;16512]Hi Nev

I went on to their web site where the father of their top stud dog is: "Res Sieger VA *Quenn vom Loher Weg SchH3"

Now I was just wondering since I have found a lot of photos of this dog but no video's and No video's of his Sch3.

I was a bit surprised so i looked up a few more of these show dogs with Sch3 and once again NO video's.

Hmmmm. one would think that if some one got their dog to Sch3 they would video it.

Or are they afraid that we will see them in motion and the truth will be told?

I did find one video of a SV trail where the standard was appalling. The standard of training and the dogs as well.

And some of these people commented that it was great. WOW I am lost for words.

But if any one finds any videos of these show dogs doing their Sch routines can you let me know where you found them.
I am interested to see the standard and also the movement of these dogs.

Adam VIPSS[/]

Hi Adam,

The dog may be reasonable and has passed breed survey once and may have been sold off just scraping through. The problem is the bitch lines IMHO when they continually run imported males over a local bitch that haven't had two titled parents in 5 generations. I don't know why they don't import a good bitch which doesn't make sense to me???.

Ivan Balabanov trialled a showline GSD in '08 at the USA Masters finishing 3rd and trialled the same dog Apache do Amper at the '08 WUSV world championships finishing 59th. The protection phase is where the dog was down on points as you would expect, but the dog wasn't too bad with 30 odd working line dogs behind it and there were a few videos on that dog in all phases. The dog by pedigree was nothing special, just the average West German lines???.

Cheers
Nev.

[=adam VIPSS;16523]Hi All

Just rung them up.

The laddie Tony was very defensive.
I asked if there where any video's of any of her dogs doing Schutzhund

She said why did I wanted to see that, if I have seen sch before I don't need to see her dogs doing it, and that she doesn't have any video's.

And she hung up in a hurry.

What a joke JOKE JOKE. this whole show society is full of lies and deception. Deceiving general public about what they are selling.

Crap dressed up and polished to a shine so it sparkles.

Adam VIPSS[/]

You are a naughty boy Adam!!!

The best way to catch them out is roll around with your sleeve and ask to take the dog for a walk. If it's Schutzhund trained, it shouldn't take much to ramp the dog up for a bite. If it stands there looking silly, it's a finalist from the midnight trials. The dog would heel properly, chase a dumbell, they don't forget. If you could get hold of the leash, you tell instantly if the dog is trained or not.

Cheers
Nev.

I was wondering about Beychief kennel. First off I have alot of respect for Beychief, they are a supplier of Police K9's to the NSW correctional services, and PD Titan came from their kennel, who died in the line of duty. They have Czech working lines as well. On their website:
"In Germany the adult dogs entering the show ring have working titles. Some of these dogs have wonderful characters and are suitable for producing service type dogs. Others are excellent for providing therapy and obedience dogs. We try to avoid line or in breeding as far as we can."
I really respect this kennel in that they do their best to avoid line AND inbreeding, as linebreeding IS inbreeding and breeders often say they dont inbreed but do linebreed. I understand that a degree of this is needed to fix certain traits, but as a kennel a conscious awareness to avoid it as much as possible is desirable as it can have severe health consequences for the dogs and reduce their lifespan.

But I was curious in that they import show lines with working titles, and was not sure about their stud dog:
BEYCHIEF GERMAN SHEPHERD DOGS

My personal preference is for working GSDs with straight backs as they used to have, my personal choice as thats who I grew up with and in the long run straight backed GSDs are more likely to push through to their twilight years keeping strength in their hind legs for longer when faced with degenerative conditions. Plus its natural, wolves have straight backs and all Canids predators have straight backs, so evolution has got to be hinting on something..

But that is my personal opinion and I do not have an extensive experience with working dogs in security or police work like many on this board, I am still a novice. So I was wondering how does the degree of angulation in the Stud dog at Beychief affect his working ability.
Also PD Titan (Beychief Magic Return), who I am assuming had some degree of angulation based on his pedigree, was a great dog and showed true courage and bravery. Does anyone know what lines he was (as in West German Show, East German, DDR, Czech etc), and have I got it all wrong in terms of angulation and working ability?
Beychief Magic Return - German shepherd dog

[=adam VIPSS;16541]Hi all

Found a video's of some of these show dogs doing some sort of working test. I think its a breed survey.

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I hope this is not what they call a Sch 3 title.

Then again they could be giving them the title after that as I cannot find any other videos of these dogs working.

Now one would think if they put this pis poor effort on the internet that they would be more inclined to put up their Sch3.

Just about every imported show dog has got a Sch3 title. Where are the videos of their trails??????????????????

Can any one ask some show people where do they keep the good videos of their dogs doing the SCH3. I smell a rat.

Adam VIPSS[/]

Adam,
More to the point, has anyone seen these imported SchH3 dogs have a run at the Sch clubs???. Has Eagle Heights or Waratah the QLD clubs seen any these dogs???.

It's a bit like importing a Ferrari.....it would be good to get the car on a race track for spin, same you would imagine with a SchH3 trained dog???. It would be the first thing I did at the earliest opportunity to take the dog to a club and work him/her to get a feel for where he is at and see if you got your money's worth. I am sure the club people would be more than happy to have a look at a new import and give him a routine, especially when the owners of these dogs use the title as a marketing exercise to attract perspective stud searchers towards using their dog, you want to know if the dog delivers the goods???.

They should have paperwork with those dogs also and a trial log book, where and when the trials took place, who the helper and the judge was along with the breed survey signed off???. Young dogs with SchH1 and one breed survey done if they are borderline or unlikely to pass the 2nd breed survey, the Germans I wouldn't trust not to pass these dogs on to an idiot in Australia where essentially the dog is a wash out.

Cheers
Nev

[=Sanji's Brother;16534]I was wondering about Beychief kennel. First off I have alot of respect for Beychief, they are a supplier of Police K9's to the NSW correctional services, and PD Titan came from their kennel, who died in the line of duty. They have Czech working lines as well. On their website:
"In Germany the adult dogs entering the show ring have working titles. Some of these dogs have wonderful characters and are suitable for producing service type dogs. Others are excellent for providing therapy and obedience dogs. We try to avoid line or in breeding as far as we can."
I really respect this kennel in that they do their best to avoid line AND inbreeding, as linebreeding IS inbreeding and breeders often say they dont inbreed but do linebreed. I understand that a degree of this is needed to fix certain traits, but as a kennel a conscious awareness to avoid it as much as possible is desirable as it can have severe health consequences for the dogs and reduce their lifespan.

But I was curious in that they import show lines with working titles, and was not sure about their stud dog:
BEYCHIEF GERMAN SHEPHERD DOGS

My personal preference is for working GSDs with straight backs as they used to have, my personal choice as thats who I grew up with and in the long run straight backed GSDs are more likely to push through to their twilight years keeping strength in their hind legs for longer when faced with degenerative conditions. Plus its natural, wolves have straight backs and all Canids predators have straight backs, so evolution has got to be hinting on something..

But that is my personal opinion and I do not have an extensive experience with working dogs in security or police work like many on this board, I am still a novice. So I was wondering how does the degree of angulation in the Stud dog at Beychief affect his working ability.
Also PD Titan (Beychief Magic Return), who I am assuming had some degree of angulation based on his pedigree, was a great dog and showed true courage and bravery. Does anyone know what lines he was (as in West German Show, East German, DDR, Czech etc), and have I got it all wrong in terms of angulation and working ability?
Beychief Magic Return - German shepherd dog[/]

Hi Sanji's Brother

Not all dogs that work in correctional services are chosen on outstanding ability. Some are often donated or given away by original owners who need a dog rehomed then the breeders latch onto one of their dogs is a police dog and use it as a marketing exercise. Obviously the dogs have enough ability to do the job, but some are not chosen for brilliance, many selections come down to budget where government departments won't always pay the money required for a top level dog and want the best dog for the cheapest price. I heard a story recently where a government department wouldn't pay more than $800 for a dog worth $2000 on the open market, naturally the owner didn't sell to them???.

I am not an expert on breeding, far from it to be honest, but inbreeding/linebreeding avoidance running on outcrosses is not always a good thing. Linebreeding locks in specific traits and someone outcrossing in an anti insest type regime is to be me met with caution IMHO as a lot of guess work comes into play. A breeder outcrossing you would need confidence that they know what they are outcrossing to achieve.

The best young GSD's I have seen have been linebred on Fax vom Grenzganger with local ancestory on Von Forell, Yultzen, Cendraise and Nordenstamm lines. Line breedings on Stormfront Brawnson, Dolf ze Zakovy Hory, Asa vom Haus Gebets, Kuran van Teikerhook, Dares ze Geradonu etc are good potential prospects. Progeny of Yultzen Diesel, Vonforell Erger, Vonforell Aero in those lines is what I would lean towards in a GSD pup, I am sure there are others worthy of consideration that other here will know of also.

Cheers
Nev

[=adam VIPSS;16544]Nev

I totally agree with you. But I would also add that I find a bit suspicious the lack of any real footage of these dogs doing their Sch trails.
After all they have tons of photos of these dogs stacking up, posing and so on.

Surely a title like the Sch3 is not something that can be sneezed at, and is of huge importance.
One would think that a title such as this proving that the dog has passed the highest test in workability would be important enough for these people to show of. After all they do find it important enough to put it up on their web sites as a marketing ploy.
They also show of their photos of stacking and talk about pigmentation and so on.

Any working dog breeder that has reached the Sch3 level would be proud to display the video of his hard work, and the dogs ability.

So whats wrong with the show people.

Adam VIPSS[/]

I agree Adam, you are correct. I did see footage of a dog Fellow von Santama in trial once who is a SchH1 import......see if I can find it.

Cheers
Nev