Thread: An interview with a KNPV trainer and breeder.

CJ : Since we are talking Dutchie’s, one of the main questions that gets brought up when discussing the breed is the difference between the FCI Pedigreed and the KNPV xDutch Shepherd. From a KNPV perspective, why do you see as the main differences to this sometimes controversial question?

GK : Im not too sure why there would be any controversy with it. The differences between the two is very big. The FCI dogs are smaller, with finer bone and narrower heads. The differences in character is just as big with the FCI dogs having less drive and working abilities.

CJ : So whats the biggest problem that lends them to not be so good at KNPV?

GK : Nerves and courage. Any working dog breeder will tell you that nerves are the hardest of all things to fix. Drive for the ball they have, and prey drive they have. They lack courage in the bitework and nerves with new experiences and situations. I have had a few that I have sold, however they could not be sold as police dogs, just as detection dogs.

CJ : So the FCI Pedigreed Dutchie is not at the same level as the FCI Malinois?

GK : Absolutley not. Not even close.

CJ : I have noticed a few more in the KNPV now?

GK : Yes, as is the way with dogs and pedigrees, a lot more mixed Dutch Shepherds have been given false pedigrees. There is a rush to paper as many mixed Malis and Dutchies as possible because soon DNA is going to come into play in Holland. This will mean that all the unregistered Malinois and Dutchies in the KNPV will never be able to go into the bloodlines of the FCI dogs.
It is a reality that some might not want to face but the FCI Malinois is where it is today because of the many, many KNPV and NVBK dogs that entered the gene pool through false pedigrees. This is soon to stop.
The FCI Dutchie is such a small gene pool that even with the influx of new working blood, it is still going to suffer the fate of been locked in a gene pool of lower working abilities. They better hope that only healthy animals are used.

CJ : What is the main reason you don’t see many other breeds such as Dobermans, Rottis and Giant Schnauzers competing in KNPV?

GK : Generally these breeds lack the courage to do the work. For instance finding a Doberman who will hold his bite on the stick attack is very difficult. They also do not have the drive and nerves to handle the stresses of KNPV training. It is a very difficult and long program, which can put a lot of stresses onto the dog. We need a dog who can take this pressure on Monday night and come out Tuesday night as if Monday never happened.

CJ : So with regards to your breedings you have done, which do you consider to be your best examples?

GK : That’s also difficult to answer. I think if I had to put one up I would say that Bono Pegge was hard to beat for a male. Not only did he get full 440 for his PH1, and competed at the KNPV nationals but he had an excellent bloodline. He was a large, extremely good looking male.
He was an extremely confident dog, social and calm. But he could turn into monster very quicky if he was challenged civilly. He was the complete package. His only draw back was he wasn’t overly spectacular in his attacks, unlike a Rudie Pegge for instance.
But to me what is the use of a good dog if he doesn’t produce himself, and that’s where Bono was exceptional. He only had 7 breedings in Holland prior to been sold to the USA but the % of these pups that went on to PH1 was extremely high. It wasn’t till he had left the country and his pups were 12 months of age that the mistake of selling him was realized. Many people in Holland consider his offspring to be very valuable as Police dogs.

CJ : Its funny you should say that, I was talking to a national level KNPV competitor, who was visiting our club, about my Female Dutchie and how territorial she was to our house and how protective she was of us. He asked who her father was and I mentioned that it was Bono Pegge, his reply was straight away “Oh she bites for real then, no problems”.

GK : Yes, as you know my Kira was her sister and she would also bite for real, no problems.
I think the best female I bred was Bo Grevink PH1 408. She was just so extremely tough and came from a super successful litter. Seven litter mates got PH1 along with her.

CJ : So how do you think the dogs been bred now in the KNPV compare to the dogs of 15 years ago?

GK : I think we don’t get them as strong as we used to. However, we are breeding more better dogs now. In the old days we would get one pup in a litter that was crazy and extreme, but after the top ones the other pups would go down quickly in quality. Now we get a lot more consistently higher quality pups. The difference between the top 80% of pups isn’t that great. I think this is a better result for us.
In some litters picking a pup is just as simple as putting your hand in and pulling one out, any pick should result in a quality working animal.

CJ : So how do you pick a pup from a litter?

GK : Well its very difficult now, and even more difficult when you haven’t raised the litter. I like to test their drives, test their nerves and confidence in new surroundings and new stimulations. When the characters are similar I look at their size, colour and the way they move.

CJ : You travel a lot around Europe, be it to IPO clubs or NVBK clubs, do you see the KNPV bloodlines as being very different in terms of their characters to the dogs used in these other programs?

GK : For sure. Obviously each program requires certain things from the dogs, that other programs may not. This is the case with the KNPV dogs. IPO and especially NVBK require a lot of control. Control, control, control. The KNPV does not require this same level of control. This can be seen with just the stop attack. The distance between the decoy and the call back in KNPV is quite large, whereas in NVBK and French Ring the distance is very small, less than a meter desired. And in other ways the KNPV dog is required to work more independently than other programs. We require a dog to run 150 meters away from his handler into the woods and search for the decoy. When he finds the decoy he has to guard the decoy for a large number of minutes before the handler arrives.
So we have dogs that would not be suited to the high control sports such as Ring or IPO, while a lot of IPO dogs wouldn’t have the nerve to work in our program for instance.

CJ : And finally Gerben, with all your experiences around the world with IPO people and police officers what are the main misconceptions you find they have about the KNPV?

GK : Very good question.
Firstly that KNPV is a sport in the same way IPO is. This just isn’t correct. Sure we have a trial, points are awarded and a National is held, but the KNPV is ran by the Police, not a breed club or sport organization. It’s purpose is to train dogs for the police and military. This is still the intention of 90% of the people who do KNPV. They buy a pup, they train it to the PH1 certificate and then they sell this dog to the Police. In IPO and NVBK the handlers will buy a dog, train it up and spend the next 4 years trialing for points and competition.
I also hear from people who have never trained in the KNPV that most KNPV dogs are just trained in Prey/Play drive. Again, this is just not correct. The Police control the KNPV and these dogs are trained for Police work. If the dogs been sold to the Police were being trained in prey/play drive for their entire lives do you think the Police would be happy with this? No, of course not.
And even more confusing is that when Police officers in the USA get our dogs and see for themselves that these dogs are biting for real, then they think we have trained them in ”defence” from a young age.
We want our dogs working in fight, not in prey or defence. We want our dogs to be “A-social” in nature. We want them to love the fight. They are motivated by the desire to fight the decoy, not to gain a sleeve for the run back to the car.
I think also that the KNPV has bred a dog with more fight. Our dogs are in drive for the decoy at a young age from their genes.

CJ : Thanks for your time.

GK : Anytime.

Thanks for the post Chris. It is very interesting to learn the opinions of an obviously very highly credentialed trainer and breeder!

Cheers

Chris

Hi Chris

Thanks for that excellent interview Chris, it was very informative and helpful. My friends in Holland have very similar views on the different types of malinois and dutch shepherds. It is great to get advice and helpful information from a breeder and trainer that has such a vast experience and knowledge.

Regards Ben

Interesting discussion, thankyou for taking the time to post it.

Regarding the unregistered KNPV dogs, I wonder if you would know of any truth to rumours I have heard, that other breeds have been added to the gene pool ?

Originally Posted by kateshep

Regarding the unregistered KNPV dogs, I wonder if you would know of any truth to rumours I have heard, that other breeds have been added to the gene pool ?

I think there is plenty of truth to the rumours. Exactly what is in there, and how much of it is up for debate. These unregistered Malis in the KNPV and NVBK programs have also been added into the gene pools of the FCI dogs. Even today you get pedigreed Malis pop out with GSD saddles and GSD'd pop out like Malinois.

KNPV breeding seems very practical

Hi Chris

I see it took you a while to get your five cents in. What happened the american site finaly gave you the boot. To bad that you didnt proofe read your article as in some paragrafs you contridict your theories and yourself.

And finaly It is nice that you (the expert trainer) Have included Appie Kemps Although I know that his (Appies) opinion is diferent to the one sidedness expresed here for the benefit of the people that import unregistered cross bread dogs. Dogs that will never be registered and recognised.

As to KNPV it is a fantastic sport (i love it) and the amount of dogs that I have seen being chased of the field at the police trials would be equvelent to any other sport. I dont think that they are superour in anything other that you can trail anything that looks like a malinois or resembles a dog of any discription.

But if you want to call that superiour good luck to you.

Dont forget that a lot of KNPV bread dogs dont pass PH1 due to weekneses.

and that would be very consistant with what i saw and worked with when i was there. there is only a small persantage of KNPV dogs about 10% that I would regard as good and the rest are less then everage.

Even then you have the problem of Pedigree.

As to their size I dont think that what you say is true as well I Have seen some nice size dogs as well as some small dogs. That the owners where waried if they would be big enough to trail.

So once again I think that your generalisation of the KNPV DOGS being superiour in anything is fulse and untrue and you should seize the atempts to full people with your self promotion and promoting an normal unregistered cross bread dog as anything better.

after all you keep on comparing a CROSS BREAD UNREGISTERED to pure bred pedigreed dogs.

And as to the rest of the article it would be nice if for once you put some truth in to your article and not self promoting beep.

The police dont run the KNPV and They dont buy 99% of them cos they dont want to pay the type of money that the private people will, for the 10% of good dogs that pass the PH1. Police end up like here in OZ with the left overs in a lot of circumstance. And some people trail their dogs till they are 5 or 6 years old and they never sell them. They go through PH1 number of times and they try to get max points and then Ph2.

I found your article one sided untrue and lacking at best.

As to my spelling to bad