Thread: Michael Ellis on Drives and Aggression

Interesting but very basic information...most people working dogs should know all that.. Seems he is chatting to new students with little knowledge. I agree with most of what he says...

However I have issue with people that say a dog gets (or is) "angry". I don't believe a dog is capable of expressing or feeling anger.. just as they don't have the capacity to "love" as we define the term love.

To me anger and hate are emotional responses.. a dog doesn't react on emotion..he/she reacts on instinct and conditioned behaviour. How this dog does respond to a given situation is dependant on the dogs genetics and how strong or weak genetically the dog is, and what instincts are most dominant in the breed or dog.

A good fighter, say for example a boxer or mixed martial arts.. Their sport is aggression focused, not anger focused. When one of those sports persons gets angry, they have allowed emotion to control their actions..and usually makes them a less effective fighter...

I feel we should be careful about putting human emtions on dogs and giving the impression that their actions are directed by emotions like love, hate, anger, jealousy, etc. Especially to people new to the working dog field.

Just my opnion.

Thank you for the post

I find this very useful as this explains the drive that my dog has.

Now I can see that my dog Kalinka has the competitive aggression.

And her growling come from dominating the decoy, and competing with him.

The way i came up with this is because she gets MORE serious, when the decoy ups the level of aggression to her, she fights harder.

Her tail is up and waging while on the bite, she is happy and willing to look for the hidden decoy. So she is not trying to avoid him and she is not responding to threat. She is exited and serious in searching for him.

When you up the ante with her she gets MORE serious. Acording to Michael Ellis she works in fight drive.

Thanks for the video this explains it nicely.

Adam VIPSS

I think it is a good introduction for new people...and maybe even some people who use different terms for different drives...
I am kind ov interested in seeing part two of this video...there is higher levels of each drive...thresholds...nerve...hardness...all of which either add or subtract from the end product...
I have seen lots of dogs show very high drive...one hard correction and the dog shuts down...the drive was extinguished...the best dogs have to combine a high level of everything to be good...
Maybe this video of Mikes should be made a sticky so that new people can understand aggression & drive from someone respected?...

@ Adam...I hope your post was made in jest?...the dog in the video you showed was not a high level fight drive dog...she looked like a nice average dog at best...no offence ment...

Originally Posted by Jeff Kouts

I have seen lots of dogs show very high drive...one hard correction and the dog shuts down...the drive was extinguished...the best dogs have to combine a high level of everything to be good...

Well put. Very well put Jeff.

High drive is not so unusual, many breeds and individuals can display it, but having the nerve to carry/convey/focus the drive into behaviour is more often lacking than not.

Michael Ellis? What an amazing communicator. It wouldn't matter what he was teaching, as long as he understood the subject matter he would be brilliant at presenting the material. He is a real assett to the dog training community in general.

Its just a pity that he did the dvd's through Leerburg! I cant bring myself to buy anything from that bloke, too many bad personal experiences, and seen him act without integrity on too many occassions.

Michael Ellis? Knowledge, true understanding, brilliant communicator, born educator.

Originally Posted by Jeff Kouts

@ Adam...I hope your post was made in jest?...the dog in the video you showed was not a high level fight drive dog...she looked like a nice average dog at best...no offence ment...

Jeff form your public profile I can see the your amateurish opinion doesn't hold much weight.
I on the other hand work this dog on a daily basis in all types of situations and train every week with one of the best trainers in the country.

So no I wold not get offended by some one with so little knowledge for expressing his unprofessional opinion.

Just stating the obvious..... no offense meant and non taken.

From a realistic, operational standpoint, the little dog would be sufficiently worrying to any bad guy.
To some extent the amount we focus on grip is a little ridiculous when discussing a good candidate for pp/sec work. I personally want it all, but a slightly chewy grip, or even a growl, is not going to make a difference when the tailgate drops!
Is she super strong? We will all have varying opinions.
There is SOOOOO much more to consider than just the grips when having to live with the dog as a pet and work the dog on the street. If I had kids and this bitch is super with them as adam describes, I would happily take a trade for the livability factor.
Dave Mills has some interesting grip development perspectives on mal bitches such as this, maybe we should start a thread and get him to weigh in on it. He has trained a lot of dogs and travelled many times to Holland to work KNPV.
Could you 'fold' this dog with it smashing some grips into your leg or arm? Sure, there is that unattractive possibility, but what would the tradeoff be? I would probably bleed out not long after I managed it, if indeed I could manage it at all.
I wouldnt want to wear her, and I think this is a good example of a dog that is of enough merit, all considered from what I have seen reported and seen on vid, that would all feel comfortable watching our wives or kids.
As my personal dog, not reaaallllly my cup of tea, but I like her!
Adam, if you put anything on here mate people will criticise, I have learnt that already...but, this forum is all about opinion sharing after all.
Enjoy her mate, she looks great fun!

BG

Hi Brad

You can ask Luc he has seen her and worked her before the whip was use on her and ask him what natural grip she had.

It was the best any one has seen for a long time.

The grip now is not the same as before but we are working on it.

As to the video mate i put it up there for people to see and comment, so that we all can learn. and you are quite wright I would not want to cross her, she is quite lethal. And please bare it in mind this she is only two and no where near finish product.

Adam VIPSS

tried going back to sleeve to set grip?