Thread: Low drive in mornings

Try playing with him (throwing his ball a number of times) when you get him out. He needs to chase something to increase his drive and usually a ball does it. Whenever he seems flat (lack of drive), get the ball out. Are you rewarding him with his favourite toy (throwing his ball) enough?

Peter

PS You need to motivate your dog more.

Originally Posted by Summit K9

Try playing with him (throwing his ball a number of times) when you get him out. He needs to chase something to increase his drive and usually a ball does it. Whenever he seems flat (lack of drive), get the ball out. Are you rewarding him with his favourite toy (throwing his ball) enough?

Peter

PS You need to motivate your dog more.

His favorite toy is a tug, not a ball, but I do bring the ball out occasionally. He does like the ball, but prefers the koala tug. I can't really throw the tug around (or can I?)

So if he is a bit flat it is fine to have a few throws of the ball first to "get him in the mood" so to speak, and then do some work with a tug? I've never done much retrieval work, usually it's just a case of doing the drive work, ending when he is in his peak. Throwing him back into the run (or leaving him in the yard, whatever I feel like doing) then after a while I might throw his leash on and take him for a walk or something. I've always been under the impression that I should only be using toys in the short driving building sessions?

Was going to ask my trainer these questions but I don't see him again till Montus teething is over.

The main thing is that the dog is motivated. Throwing the ball instead of a tug gives him something to chase which in turn increases his prey drive. Also whenever you finish "tug work" or in fact any training, you should play with him for a little while, and if you can get him chasing a ball as in play/prey drive, I think you'll find he'll gradually improve. Bring him out to train; play first (throwing the ball), finish training on a high, play again BEFORE you put him away. The intention is to have the dog excited and looking forward to his training session EVERYTIME you train.

Don't have long training sessions, more short and enjoyable ones. A pup's attention span is very short, if you train long sessions, you are not motivating the pup and he is not learning.

Play first - train (giving plenty of reward) - and play last = a motivated dog.

Peter

PS Depending on the age of your pup, doing too much training can have a negative effect. He needs to socialise and build confidence through experience.......and of course enjoy being a pup. Training should always be reward (positive reinforcement) based at that age.

Originally Posted by Summit K9

The main thing is that the dog is motivated. Throwing the ball instead of a tug gives him something to chase which in turn increases his prey drive. Also whenever you finish "tug work" or in fact any training, you should play with him for a little while, and if you can get him chasing a ball as in play/prey drive, I think you'll find he'll gradually improve. Bring him out to train; play first (throwing the ball), finish training on a high, play again BEFORE you put him away. The intention is to have the dog excited and looking forward to his training session EVERYTIME you train.

Don't have long training sessions, more short and enjoyable ones. A pup's attention span is very short, if you train long sessions, you are not motivating the pup and he is not learning.

Play first - train (giving plenty of reward) - and play last = a motivated dog.

Peter

PS Depending on the age of your pup, doing too much training can have a negative effect. He needs to socialise and build confidence through experience.......and of course enjoy being a pup. Training should always be reward (positive reinforcement) based at that age.

The problem I face with the ball is he is all keen to chase it, but not keen to bring it back. So it's basically a case of I grab the ball, throw it, he chases, he comes back to me without said ball. I've tried heaps of encouragement when he brings the ball back but he doesn't seem to be pairing it to the ball, it just seems to be increasing the speed of his recall.

Our training sessions are always short, a few minutes usually. He is around 6 months. So far I've basically done no real corrections, but the way I use my e-collar doesn't really work as a correction anyway. I'm thinking maybe I'm not taking him out enough.

I think I've noticed one thing reducing his drive, his crate. If I bring him from his run, he is usually rather enthusiastic. If I bring him from his crate, he isn't. If he isn't, I can use my flirt stick and he is instantly ready for the chase and his drive bottle lid seems to come off and he is into it 100% but I want to start bringing him off the flirt stick.

I'll give your suggestions a go.

I know it's something I am doing wrong, it's not him, but it is frustrating when you see awesome drive for a few weeks and you finally think you've nailed it, and then you see pathetic performances from the dog for a week or so. Incidentally, the times he performs poorly are ALWAYS the times I have my video camera out, or I am demonstrating to someone. Whenever he does well, no camera in site

[FONT=Tahoma]I would forget retrieve as an exercise until you’ve got him chasing the ball. [/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]Try two balls and use one to reward him when he comes back to you. This also works with two small rubber rings (hoops); this may encourage him to bring it back to you more than a ball. As soon as he returns to you with one rubber ring, throw the other one for him. [/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]If you want to train a retrieve it should be done in stages – holding first (once he's holding, in front of you, increase the distance by walking backwards so that he follows holding the ball/ring), after he's chased the ball/ring, then combine it with a recall starting with short distances, but at this stage you are trying to increase his drive, not training a retrieve and if he's enjoying the game, he should really be bringing the ball back so that you can throw again for him.[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]You may be moving a little fast for him. Also how long is he crated? Are you allowing him to stretch his legs, have a sniff around etc when you take him from the crate? You can’t take him straight from being crated and expect him to work/train without first doing what comes naturally. [/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]Do you use food to reward him? [/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]You’ve got to show the dog that it’s a fun and enjoyable game for him. If he isn’t enjoying himself, he will be disinterested and won't want to do it. [/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]He is still only a pup at six months, so socialise him more; give him new experiences. [/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]Peter [/FONT]

PS Why are you using an ecollar at six months? It may not be much of a stim, but I wouldn't use one until he's over 12 months of age. Just my opinion but I think he's far too young for ecollar training.

Originally Posted by Summit K9

[FONT=Tahoma]I would forget retrieve as an exercise until you’ve got him chasing the ball. [/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]Try two balls and use one to reward him when he comes back to you. This also works with two small rubber rings (hoops); this may encourage him to bring it back to you more than a ball. As soon as he returns to you with one rubber ring, throw the other one for him. [/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]If you want to train a retrieve it should be done in stages – holding first (once he's holding, in front of you, increase the distance by walking backwards so that he follows holding the ball/ring), after he's chased the ball/ring, then combine it with a recall starting with short distances, but at this stage you are trying to increase his drive, not training a retrieve and if he's enjoying the game, he should really be bringing the ball back so that you can throw again for him.[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]You may be moving a little fast for him. Also how long is he crated? Are you allowing him to stretch his legs, have a sniff around etc when you take him from the crate? You can’t take him straight from being crated and expect him to work/train without first doing what comes naturally. [/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]Do you use food to reward him? [/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]You’ve got to show the dog that it’s a fun and enjoyable game for him. If he isn’t enjoying himself, he will be disinterested and won't want to do it. [/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]He is still only a pup at six months, so socialise him more; give him new experiences. [/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]Peter [/FONT]

PS Why are you using an ecollar at six months? It may not be much of a stim, but I wouldn't use one until he's over 12 months of age. Just my opinion but I think he's far too young for ecollar training.

I haven't used the e-collar yet, properly. He has done sit, sit at a distance and recall with it simply so I could teach him how to turn it off. The e-collar is on him every time I bring him out, though I will be using it soon. I've no real issue with using the e-collar on a pup and no real reason not to. The only other way I've trained him is by withholding treats. For example, he'd get told to sit and if as I go to reward him he jumps then the treat is withheld. IMO, on Montu, this causes far more stress than using my e-collar coupled with treats would. I'm a huge believer in that psychological punishments (ignoring and withholding treats) will cause just as much, if not more stress than a physical correction or guidance would. The only reason I've not used it more is because I don't need to yet.

By retrieve I just meant an informal bring the ball back to me. He chases it fine, but won't bring it back to me. We have actually progressed slightly, he picks things up and runs a few meters then drops it and comes sprinting back

He's only crated if it rains, other than that he is in his run. Before doing any work I open the run up and let him have a shoot around the bigger yard for 10 minutes or so, to go to the toilet and to stretch his legs. I never work him straight from his crate. He goes into the larger yard at least twice a day, weather permitting. In hotter weather he goes out there less as I don't like locking the sibes inside in heat.

I use food to reward some things, but not when doing drive training. His prey drive is on par with his food drive at this stage anyway.

I've noticed another odd thing. If he has low interest and I put the drive toy on the ground, run it along the ground and lift it up he is fine. My drive initialisation word is simply "work" and that gets his attention and he goes into drive (slightly), but sometimes he won't be interested in the toy till it hits the ground. Not always, but sometimes. I doubt I am moving to fast, about half of the bites he gets in are unintentional as he moves too fast and I wasn't paying attention and missed the burst of speed. Guess if his speed burts then I would have rewarded annyway.

He is definitely enjoying himself, though, once I give him the toy as a reward how long should I be letting him hold it for? Right now I vary it from 3-15 seconds. I can't jerk it out of his mouth now as his grip has strenghtened and is solid again so I have to get him to out it.

[FONT=Tahoma]You seem preoccupied with the Ecollar. If you are teaching him “to turn it off”, it follows that he must have received a level of stim, so I’m a little confused when you say you haven’t used it “properly”. If you are just getting him used to wearing the collar (switched off) until he’s old enough to train with it active, that’s different, but using it now [/FONT][FONT=Tahoma]IMO[/FONT][FONT=Tahoma] is a mistake.[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]Food or in fact any reward should be used when the dog does something right or something he should be rewarded for doing. [/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]Once again, training at this age should be enjoyable to your dog, and most dogs (even those probably not genetically suited) will have a puppy’s level of play drive, therefore chasing a ball even out of inquisitiveness, is usually no problem, providing you have worked up his level of play by ‘teasing’ (I prefer to call it encouraging) him with the ball before you throw it. If you are expecting a formal retrieve from him (at six months) when you throw anything, until he’s been trained to do it, you're going to be disappointed. You seem to be expecting a lot from a six month old pup....just my opinion[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]Compulsion and/or correction shouldn't enter into the training at this age; he’s still too young to received regimented or formal training. He should be encouraged and shown as part of a game with plenty of reward. The time he holds his toy at this age should be as long as you decide providing you have allowed him to have the toy as a reward, but you should not let him think you are depriving of his toy/ball if you are trying to get him to bring it back to you; this will not encourage him to return with it. That is why I suggested the two ball or two ring system of training for your problem[/FONT][FONT=Tahoma].[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]You shouldn't ‘jerk’ anything out of his mouth. If you think it will harm him, certainly get it from him as quickly as you can, but snatching or jerking from him will have a negative effect; the opposite to that which you want......once again use two balls/rings.[/FONT]

I don't mean to sound too critical, if I do, I apologise. I am offering my opinion which I hope will help. It should always be kept in mind that a dog's puppy-hood cannot be returned, and the opportunities at this time are crucial in its development, and the mistakes (which we all make), can have a lasting effect and can be very difficult to overcome later.

[FONT=Tahoma]Peter[/FONT]

I agree with the above post by SummitK9, personally I dont think an Ecollar should be used until atleast 12months and definately not until the dog understands the training principle's that you are trying to teach. In my opinion an e collar is only used to cement training or clean up training, it is not used to to teach new principles. If in doubt, sportingdogs a member of the forum, is one of the best and m,ost knowledgable e collar trainers in the world, if you ask for some advice I am sure Mike Fransen will help as much as he can as he has been using and training with the e collar for many years and has titled many dogs in the NVBK belgian ring. Try there website www,sportingdogs.be and see how you go.

Regards Ben

I'll create another thread on e-collars but for now can we focus on the drive issue (as I don't want to get side tracked, but I do want to discuss e-collars)?

With regards to jerking out of his mouth, I've always been told (by everyone who I've asked) that I should be jerking it out of the dogs mouth when he seems to be losing interest or his grip is relaxing. This improves his grip and teaches him to hold on tight for longer periods of time - just as he thinks "I don't need to hold this tight" and loosens the grip he looses the toy so this way his grip increases and for longer periods of time, obviously I didn't do it when he was teething but now he has his adult teeth why shouldn't I be? He shows no visual signs of being hurt and his grip is improving incredibly fast, both the initial "strike" and the "hold" and since we're recovering from a bee sting in his mouth which caused his grip to become weak I thought it was important to focus on improving grip at the same time. His grip was so weak I could pull a toy from his mouth with one finger, from behind. Obviously it's a lot stronger now.

I'll give the two ball game a go, but will have to wait till tomorrow as it was pissing down with rain last night (I do all my training at night, night worker) and I didn't want to get wet :P He does happily come to me for pats with his toy which is when I generally get him to out, but I won't let him keep his toy so long that he drops and starts chewing on it (as we're using tugs, I don't want him chewing.)

ETA3: Forgot to say, drive is improving, a lot.

ETA: Forgot half my post.
ETA2: Thread on e-collars: http://www.specialistcanines.com/tra....html#post1781