Thread: Irresponsible advertising ????

Originally Posted by David Mills

"Extremes in aggression" is your phrase mate, and I'm unsure as to where you get it from? But I am interested to know; did you ever see Dares or Fax, and if so did you ever work them? Can you describe each of their drive levels for me please?

Hi David,

Extremes in aggression is a term I use for GSD's that are genetically aggressive to the point of being solo tasking with aggression hampering their usefullness in the other working activities assigned to the breed. I haven't worked Dares and Fax being the reason I asked the question, but the difference between Dares and Fax as an example is that were great dogs and also Schutzhund titled being the standard test of breed integrity for the GSD.

I am not referring to or intersted in the traits that make a great security dog for example, I am interested in the traits that make a good balanced GSD as defined by the breed standards???.

Cheers
Nev

Originally Posted by Lia Goldie

Neville

The concern that some had in the DOL thread was not the traits that make up an excellent working dog, but the traits that make up a correct GSD, and extremes in aggression are unlikely to pass the relevent tests with a breeding by the book standards is the angle I was personally coming from.

This is NOT the case. The concern was with the wording of the ad and the use of the word aggression. Extreme aggression was not mentioned anywhere in the ad, I think you are the only one to use the term.

The thread went on a bit with several different angles thrown in, but the context of the thread was concern about labelling the GSD aggressive in relation to dog laws and I guess ultimately BSL???.

Cheers
Nev

Originally Posted by Neville Patterson

Hi David,

Extremes in aggression is a term I use for GSD's that are genetically aggressive to the point of being solo tasking with aggression hampering their usefullness in the other working activities assigned to the breed. I haven't worked Dares and Fax being the reason I asked the question, but the difference between Dares and Fax as an example is that were great dogs and also Schutzhund titled being the standard test of breed integrity for the GSD.

I am not referring to or intersted in the traits that make a great security dog for example, I am interested in the traits that make a good balanced GSD as defined by the breed standards???.

Cheers
Nev

Nev, I find it offensive that you label a great security dog as a not well balanced GSD, especially when this purpose (security-guardian-shepherd) was the core reason in breeding the GSD into existence? I'd dare say that you've never owned one of these dogs, and therefore you have no right/authority to own an opinion on them. If this type of dog is not for you, so be it, I won't judge you on that...but please stop judging these dogs, and the types of people that are only too happy to own one of them. Just say each to their own, or even better...say nothing. I would never own a show line GSD, but you will never hear me passing any judgements on them, and the folk who home them. Just some food for thought.

It is good that you have joined this forum mate, as you will now have the chance to learn a little more about GSD's, their drives/workability, and their history. Dares and Fax were indeed great dogs, but as I'm fairly confident you never managed to ever get to see either of them in the flesh, let alone work them, so I'm interested to hear just how you managed to form this opinion of yours? Have you seen footage of these dogs? Have you spoken to the people who owned them? Or people who did work them?

I did get the chance to work Fax, as I have also been lucky enough to work many great sport titled dogs, both locally here, and in countries like Holland, Germany, USA etc. I can say Neville, without any hesitation at all, and based on actual first hand experience that I have gone out and accumulated, that my female GSD, who is the mother of the puppies in such deep discussions throughout various Internet forums, is in fact better balanced than Fax, as well as a great deal many other Sch titled dogs I won't bother to list for you. She is better balanced in drives, yes, all drives that is mate. Now I'm sure this will not sit right with you, as Fax has a list of titles that my shitty little security bitch never will have, but I know it to be true because I have a wealth of experience guiding my opinions mate, experience that I went out there and got for myself, as opposed to reading up on the Internet forums, or listening to someone else's experience with these dogs. And I say this without a hint of bias in my words. Yes I did breed her, and yes I do own her. But I am a straight up honest guy Nev, you don't know me so you will have to take my word for it. My kennel Integraguard comes from two words, Guard and Integrity, and these are the two core reasons for my deciding to take on breeding, that and the fact I couldn't find a dog to call my own. I call a spade a spade mate, no matter what, so without any bias at all, again; my female is better balanced than the great Fax Vom Grenzgänger. If i breed a shit dog, I call it so, and deal with it accordingly. I would even go so far to say that my standards are higher than almost anyone else I know, so my shit dog could quite well be a good dog for someone else, but they will never know that. If I produce a dog that in my opinion is not a well balanced, stable GSD, then it is put to sleep, as it bears my kennel name in front of it. Fortunately I have not yet had to do this, as every single dog I have ever bred is either in my hands, or in the hands of a police officer or prison guard. You see Neville, this is the first time I have given the general public a chance to own one of my sought after service dogs....can you perhaps have guess as to the reason why? It is also perhaps worth you noting, that both Fax and Dares feature heavily in my lines, and in the pedigree of these puppies in question, amongst many other super working dogs.

I am still also very interested in your term; "extremes in aggression", and the GSD's you label with this term. Do you have a list of names, or phone numbers where I can get to see these aggressive extreme dogs, solo tasking with their own aggression levels? I would really love to be able to see such dogs, and maybe even work them; or be able to buy one for myself? Then I don't have to worry about using everyone else's ordinary dogs to attempt to breed me one of these for my own? I have not yet been fortunate enough to see one of these animals you describe, but perhaps you've trained in other places/countries that I have not. I guess the closest thing I ever got to see was a dog called Simba. You wouldn't know him as he has no Sch titles, but I used to hear people talk of him in a similar fashion to your terms, so I went out and bought him. Once I got him home, I realised he was just another misunderstood GSD. After owning him for the last 5 years of his life, I would say he was a very well balanced, true German Shepherd working dog, a "real" dog, and a one man dog, who possessed a level of aggression i would label as....very good, but not extremely aggressive, and certainly never solo tasking. Maybe one day I'll be lucky enough to see what you are talking about.

Also, you own a Yultzen/Vonforell line dog? If you don't mind me asking, what excatly is it and where from please? Do you train this dog, and where/for what purpose please? Just for interests sake.

David,

I don't know why you felt the need to defend yourself and your dogs to me, because I for one, kept the the situation neutral including on the DOL thread which activated this discussion. The reason being, is that I don't know, met or worked your dogs and I have the respect not to pass judgement and would be extremely unfair of me to do so in the circumstances. Neither did I direct the term extreme aggression towards your dogs or anyone's in particular for that matter. The term extreme aggression was a generalised statement in defence of the breed to point out that such a dog is not compliant with how a GSD should be. In the circumstances of the DOL thread, I believe that any form of aggression debates in relation to the breed should be watered down as the angle of dangerous dog legislation which some were discussing should common sense prevail, it's in the breed's best interested in public debate to shut up about it in my opinion especially on that particular forum. But the stupid thing was...........the working dog people wanted to argue about it to bring aggression into the forefront???. How stupid is that in an audience who's GSD knowledge is no greater than their ears stick up and are trained to bite???. The truth doesn't always work when it comes to public education which I am sure the Pitbull supporters can confirm that to be the size of it.

I don't like solo tasking GSD's at all David, they are not balanced in my opinion consistant with most opinions thoughout the world from the highly experienced. A "good" GSD can do the lot from a family companion to a security dog is what the versatility of the breed is supposed to be about and what we should be aiming for. The GSD is one breed one dog, forget show and working lines divisions which is all bulldust really, the dog either complies with breed standards or it doesn't, but, the working line dog in most cases is closer to the breeds intention I believe which provides the right foundation to work with an improve on from there.

What I will ask you in terms of balance is this: We see showline dogs advertised as not suitable for security work..........ok faulty dog then it that case, now on the other hand we see working line dogs advertised as not suitable for pet homes.......why not???, what's wrong with the make up of the dog to lack the versatility of a companion animal defined by the breed standards. Isn't a "good" balanced GSD supposed to have the versatility to do it all.........or are we breeding solo tasking GSD's lacking the "balance" requirement and excusing the unbalance because it's a working line???

Neville you wouldn't buy a top Kelpie from a sheep farm and put in a suburban back yard as a pet.
While the Kelpie may love to interact with a family it will always need high activity level, this is not always found in the average pet home.

I don't know a lot about GSD compared to most people on this forum - don't own one, never have, probably never will - so aren't overly qualified to comment.

But one of my concerns is that when you attempt to breed a dog that can multi-task as a high level security dog AND a pet for the average person, you might end up with both goals compromised - you will get an animal that may be an OK pet & an OK working dog, but not brilliant at either job.

Like that saying, "Jack of all trades, master of none".

Originally Posted by rachel procter

But one of my concerns is that when you attempt to breed a dog that can multi-task as a high level security dog AND a pet for the average person, you might end up with both goals compromised - you will get an animal that may be an OK pet & an OK working dog, but not brilliant at either job.

Like that saying, "Jack of all trades, master of none".

Hi
disagree with the above statement.
The best security dogs I have known have been great family dogs.


Regards
George