Thread: Bloodline vs Individual

The pedigree with a long list of titles shows the dogs could be trained. We don't actually know if that dog leaves one field it is not a bag of nerves on another,only that it worked under it's trainer well on the day.However ability is proven and the dog worked so it's a indication nonetheless of the dog.

IMO as a breed enthusiast more so then a "breeder", i tend to think it's important to have dogs conform to the standard, it is not enough to have beauty without brains,or ugly with brains lol. Both temperament/construction are what matters to me. I would never dismiss a dog or bitch because it was from "show" lines.There are dogs getting worked who attend shows(minority) in this country, so really it comes down to owner/breeder, what is it they do with the dog? not so much the dog could only show for example..

On the flip side of the coin:
If the dog can work, why not get it graded under specialist Rottweiler judges? We only need to do a few laps/mouth inspection. Assuming it has some obedience on it, there shouldn't be any cause for concern with being critiqued etc,having said that EVERY dog should be watched carefully,control is of the upmost, but that is all dogs attending really.


Genes can throw a lazy driveless dog and still produce a hard dominant dog within that litter. What starts out as promising can fall over in the conformation ring too, a champion and a toothless pet can come out of the same dam.So yes I would choose a dog based on individual qualities regardless of Bloodline.

I actually took bits of this post from previous others i've written lol not enough coffee yet!

Good topic btw.

Just my thoughts
Amy

Interesting topic Laurie,

I agree with Amy's comments but couldn't be bothered writing such a long post.

When considering a dog to use in a breeding program, I feel it critical to judge what I see with my own eyes as at least 75% of the animals value. If a dog comprised of purely old show lines could demonstrate the ability to work correctly with a balanced nerve base...of course I would use it. Allowing breeding's to take place based solely on names and titles on paper is tantamount to destroying your breed.
As for the Germans...well there have been many very successful pairings incorporating dogs of vastly different lines. One or two breeders over there come to mind with your comment, and without saying anything offensive....It is a common excuse from the breeders of ugly dogs who cannot V rate but can pass a working trial.

Any of us that have done any breeding, really deep down know that although, we stick to working lines, it does not guarantee 100 per cent success rate,it does not mean that every pup in the litter will work, sometimes only half of them or maybe just 2 or 3 of them .Any one that says any different is jerkin the gherkin.
So really I do not believe that sticking to just working lines is the be all end all.
Although it is something to work with.
I have come across several great dogs just sitting in peoples backyards that are phenomenal workers and would have been had they been worked or trained up .That have come out of show lines.
I say alot of it has to do with upbringing and environment.

Hi All,
Firstly Great subject!

Without getting too deep and technical, having been involved in both Rotties & Working GSD's for a while now breeding etc, I will comment a little on both breeds,

Rotties I would and have done breedings using both scenarios Bloodline/Individual, but again selection based on an Individual is also researched through progeny and from which Bitch the progeny is from (Very Important), due to a reasonably small gene pool in Aus popular Stud's are used extensively, so some breedings work some don't. There are some very good Bitch's here so we are still very lucky to have a reasonably easy job of researching this.

The good Rottie Breeders here (Or the ones i believe are good) whether in the show scene, sport, or purely working scene are still producing dogs in both categories as potencial working stock. (In my opinion)

Shepherds My love and experience is with Working line GSD's and my preference is from the Slovak/Czech lineage, so for me i have a reasonably good knowledge of these lines and i am confident using these pedigrees to research for a breeding, and being pretty sucessful.

Unfortunately unlike the Rottie scene, the GSD Breed here in oz is so far apart when it comes to Working Lines V Showline its almost a different breed altogether.
(You couldnt give me a showline GSD form this country)

So I really have to rely on pedigree initially then research individual examples then observe conditioning etc, but I definatelly go by pedigree first when it comes to GSD's mainly for my preference of Slovak/Czech lineage (Just my Preference nothing else) My male does have a mix of East/West though, while my Female is mainly Czech Policia/Border Patrol lineage

The ANKC is not doing us any favours here with the changes in breed standards as they go along (Color etc. Dont get me started)
I did see some good Showline Ped working dogs when i was in Slovakia though so I dont know whats going on here


But lets face it, there is still a lot of pure ass involved and if i was to get even one or maybe two working prospects form a litter I as i'm sure we all would agree I would be more than happy.

Laurie, if l understand your question properly, the show v working lines is just an example?
l believe in any working pursuit ,where specific traits to suit that work are being selected for, the solid individual from a competent , tested line is much more useful than the freak. If you research the freak and find wonderful working relatives he is not a freak. The freak is a combination of the right traits , from a gene pool not selected or tested for those traits, he is a fluke , a one in thousands chance. No matter how good he was I would not want to chase those odds. The selected and solid dog, has his family tree already pruned of many unwanted branches and the odds of working to improve him and getting at least solid dogs is much higher.
If I was wanting to pursue my own line l select for “solid’ background all day, because to reproduce your freak consistently will take years of selection and culling that I just don’t have any more. The freak always adds all his “baggage� to your endeavours and will set you back overall.
Just my take , good discussion and topic
Tony

Thanks to all the contributors so far.

Yes, the show vs work is just an example, but very pertinent when it comes to the specificity of this forum. The question could be applicable to any trait, physical or character.....

I'm trying to understand how people think when it comes to selection for their breeding programs - Tony, I like the example of the "tree being pruned" very appropriate, and I guess that this is what the German breeder (GB) was also eluding to.

My position is to agree with Tony, but it is also very hard to ignore an individual that excels in an area that you wish to exploit.

The GB was able to back his theory - one bitch, 2 litters (diff sires), 14 out of total of 15, very good quality working dogs (super mother and grandmother behind the bitch also). One of the things that also stood out was the relative importance he placed on the breed survey as opposed to the titles - we all know titles can be trained, but the appropriately evaluated breed survey does not lie. It brings to mind a post from Cameron previously on why we need to keep testing and evaluating our dogs.

Anyway thanks again to the contributors and I look forward to more points of view.

Just a side note on Breed surveys in oz for the readers unaware of it's rules.

No bite work is involved and helper cannot get within 3m to said dog's radius in oz. Overseas the Breed suitability test incorperates character work and stick hits also a mock attack on the handler takes place and dog is expected to react by way of bite work.

I personally would like to see this test adopted by Australia.



Cheers
Amy

Great Topic it's nice to see how others base their breeding's on.

I have to say as my knowledge only is with GSD's. During my studies before I became a registered breeder i went back to basics, and learnt as much as i could about the beginning of the breed and also what is the goals for the make up of the dogs.

As mentioned today the show/working GSDS are totally two worlds! Sadly but true! however all our shepherds one way or another have "old showlines" in them. If i found an old showline dog that blew me away.. and would suit "my" goals as a breeder and desire to produce what he has in a litter by all means i would use the dog.

I think breeding is almost like a breeders artistic work in trying to create "their own" image of the standard. Or more to say ones perception of the standard. What i like in the breed and look for is 95% different to someone else.. Yes i believe the genetics and pedigrees play a huge part, BUT as mentioned i too have seen many back yard dogs who are better workers and showlines then some true working dogs. Sad state of facts but true!. Some ppl base their breeding solely on pedigrees only.. i prefer to look past that.

INHO