i have been visiting different forums over time and one of the arguments that come up all the time is

with a ppd and L/E it doesnt matter what type of bite the dog get as long as it bites
and sport it must have a full mouth no matter what

from what i have been trained to do and seen i like a full mouth bite for my security dogs
i find that when they go for the bite its less hectic and the dog has better targeting and conferdance to get in close and have a go

were i have seen dogs that have been trained to bite but not focused on how as long as it bites when told
the dogs have been hectic on there bites and dont target well so lots of re bites (not saying this is every dog just the hand full that i have seen)

what are peoples thoughts on this topics

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Regards

Nathan
"Cave Canem"

You should never aim for front mouth bites.

Front mouth usually shows lack of confidence and a dog pushed to much in defence, when it wasn't ready for it. Also shows stress and in some cases even fear. Dogs pushed into reactive defence tend to show this type of bite.

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Mark Singer
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thats what i thought

so why would some ppd trainers want a dog like that (front bite)

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Regards

Nathan
"Cave Canem"

My belief is because they don't really know what they are doing due to lack of knowledge or don't really care how they train a dog, as long as it bites... VERY sad situation indeed..in my opinion.

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Mark Singer
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I agree 100% with Mark.

I have heard and seen PPD trainers argue that they train there dogs to bite with the front canines as it hurts more as the teeth are bigger putting the person in to pain compliance, it is simply an excuse backyard trainers use to cover up for there poor training ability and poorly trained dogs.

Nathan, not sure who said that “with a ppd and L/E it doesn’t matter what type of bite the dog get as long as it bites”, is I’m afraid talking nonsense, at least as far as L/E is concerned. Equally “and sport it must have a full mouth no matter what” is also not very accurate.

To begin with, sport dogs don’t experience threat; in most cases they are brought on from puppy-hood to hold with a full mouth bite, and go through the routine in prey drive. To say they must have a full mouth bite “no matter what” is, strictly speaking, inaccurate. It should read no matter what they are confronted with on a training or competition field. A L/E dog on the other hand, which experiences real pressure, will in most cases (but not all) shift its bite due to natural reaction or learned advantage; because its taking punishment, to avoid injury, to inflict maximum damage, however that does not mean it is biting with only the front of its mouth!

A sport dog goes on a competition field or training field to complete the same routine which it knows very well (through repetition in training/experience), and which although is subject to a padded stick and maybe a few other pieces of equipment, it is not going to be subjected to kicking, stabbing, severe beating etc, therefore there just isn’t the threat which a police dog experiences; any injury a sport dog suffers is accidental, poor decoying, or bad handling, therefore it has no real need to avoid serious injury. A police dog doesn’t go into any conflict with “thoughts” of will I shift bites or will I stay on the right arm?, but it soon learns from experience that fighting an offender who is retaliating strongly may mean shifting to an area where it may not be suffering the same punishment, this is not “thought process”, this is natural instinctive reaction which later becomes a learned behaviour; it learns through its experiences to adapt to situations.
Incidentally a trained dog which shifts its bite has the potential to cause more damage than a dog which doesn’t. There is also the question of genetics, how the dog is trained and handled, and the fact that a sport dog has all the time in the world to develop its bite; a police dog comes out of a thirteen week initial course and goes on the street; maybe on his first night shift it has to chase an intruder into a dark building in the early hours; it doesn’t know the environment and gets a good kicking until its handler arrives to help; you can more or less guarantee that the next time this happens, this dog has learned from that experience and will be not be looking for a right arm with a sleeve to lock onto, he’ll be trying his best to inflict as much damage as it can before it gets damaged. A police dog does not bite with a front mouth bite; if it does it has been incorrectly and extremely poorly trained. It has a full mouth bite, but it is not on a competition or training field, it is not there to score points, therefore if there is a chance to shift its bite because of the punishment it is receiving in a real situation, a good dog will take it.

I have yet to see a police dog that is trained in the manner described, to bite with its front teeth.

Cheers
Peter

Well said Peter

Yes shifting bites is totally different to front of the mouth bites. Even a confident well trained dog that is trained (or does it instinctively) to shift bites will still make full mouth bites where possible.

I have seen way to many stressed and fear based trained dogs giving front mouth bites. This is "usually" a sign of a dog under a lot of stress.

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Mark Singer
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Hi

I agree with the above posts, in my opinion a full mouth bite for a service dog is very important. I f the dog takes a full bite it shows confidence in it's own abilities, the damaged caused from a full mouth bite is far greater than a frontal bite. A street dog that bites full and hard can be taught to counter the attacks from an assailant by shaking on the bite through fight, rebiting or redirecting.
As Peter mentioned an experienced street dog that has experienced an assailant kicking, punching etc will learn to inflict as much damage as possible, and will target any area that is presented to achieve this goal.

Personally I like a dog that bites full and hard and when attacked uses the countering method off shaking and pushing forward into the bite on any target whether legs, arms or upper body, rather than redirecting or rebiting. I think that this shows confidence and dominance over the decoy/assailant.

Regards Ben

i agree with what people are saying about the bite full and hard i dont see it any other way

but i dont understand the argument on the other forums

but the question was why would people want... a dog to do lots of rebites or bite front of mouth but i will change it a bit to any form of sport/working dog

mark put as good point forward and it makes sense

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Regards

Nathan
"Cave Canem"

I agree with the above posts and would like to add that weather the dog be for security or family protection etc if the dog does not bite with the full mouth you run the risk of it slipping and rebiting numerous times. If some criminal filth decides to sue for damages or something silly it is much harder to defend a dog which has bitten the guy many times tearing skin were ever it can grab than it is to defend a dog who has acted calmly and confidently and stoped the threat with one strong hold producing fewer holes.