Thread: Nature vs Nurture

[=Lia Goldie;18236]I wouldn't say my dog's reactivity was minor. She is fear aggressive. Not handler aggressive though. Luckily she has good drive even if her nerves are poor.

Regardless, I could never use your idea with a large dog as I only weigh around 44kg. Whereas I could use mine. I am certainly not purely positive and have no problem with corrections or correction collars, but using your strength to physically string a dog up only works if you are a certain amount bigger than the dog. And does it actually teach the dog to be able to deal with being in proximity to another dog? I would not use a method that relies on fear.

Have you actually seen how Susan Garrett operates btw? Very impressive. I wish I could be that disciplined in my interactions with my dogs and that clear with my criteria. She uses access to reinforcement.[/]

I don't think Susan Garrett's forte is rehabilitating aggressive dogs and for the most part, she is working with dogs of correct drive and temperament for what she is needing to achieve from the dog likewise, I wouldn't either be training dogs of poor character and traits in protection work or selecting fear biters for the job for a need to hang them up, but behaviour rehabiliation and training sporting dogs is two different things along with training dogs with good drive and focus compared with dogs of low drive and poor focus is an entirely different ball game.

If you can redirect a dog away from an aggressive focus, the dog in my opinion is not that severely aggressive and is workable, but there are some you cannot redirect and are totally fixated upon a target in aggression, there is a big difference between the two scenarios and as I mentioned previously, the dog needs to learn consequence to obtain reliability fear or not.

I deployed a dog years ago after an offender where an elderly lady stepped from her gate on to the sidewalk to inform us where the offender had gone, the dog saw her and changed direction and you can imagine my immediate thought? I screamed "DOWN" and the dog dropped immediately, walked up and clipped on his leash with a sigh of huge relief. That dog was trained to down in pursuit on a long line with massive corrections if he didn't comply, he knew what came next, he was reliable and the elderly lady was kept safe and I could honestly say that evening if my dog didn't know the game and know the consequences at the level of drive and aggression he was deployed, he would have nailed that elderly lady sure and certain.

Cheers
Nev

Thank you all for the interesting dialog

Some interesting points!

Nev, I am nearly 5'10" and although quite tall, my boy would be as tall from nose to tip of tail so stringing him up would not be practical for me LOL. That would be a man's job and I don't have one around to do it!!! I find that physical punishment shuts him down completely. He simply goes 'dull' and I can't do much with him other than put him away for a while. I believe that this is a stress response and simply confirms my opinion of him being 'soft'.

Although i am largely a 'positive trainer', I am certainly not a purist and firmly believe in boundaries and guidelines and if necessary am prepared to use adversives to make a point. All things in moderation!!

Obviously I am a little behind the 8ball given that I bought a pup based on phone conversations as well as blood lines and now I have an almost fully grown dog. He is an easy dog to live with at home, apart from having an annoying 'right hook' with new dogs, he is sociable with other dogs and most women and children. So I have decided to continue to take him out and about but have zero tolerance for aggressive behaviour (not including boundary barking etc). I will correct him and redirect him towards something more positive for both of us.

I have come to a couple of conclusions (not withstanding the genetics which I can do nothing about); he is still immature and I think he will settle with time and assistance. Secondly, I am sure that there are more than the one critical periods in a young dog's life when behaviours escalate or deteriorate for a time. I would be doing him a grave injustice to give up on him at this time. He has a long way to go before he crosses that line. It is my job at this time to keep him safe and people safe from him. Electric fences have gone up around my garden and when at work, he is in his kennel which is very secure.

Now, every-one has opinions about other breeders. Schutzhund is no longer do-able in Victoria (I have no idea about NSW) and generally speaking I know of very few competitions where you can chase up results and dogs/trainers that have achieved them. Dogz Online has the biggest breeding directory that I am aware of and, if not already on there, you would be familiar with many of those breeders. So one goes to the websites, looks at the dogs and follows them up on Pedigree Database to find out more information about them. Then what? Some-one mentioned about having the breeder visit shopping centres with the female and assessing her firmness of character there. That sounds great in theory but of those people I have dealt with in the past, I believe that none would so much as humour me with a request like that. I think that the best success could only be achieved by being involved in the Sporting Dog Club fraternity and going on word of mouth by respected members of that fraternity. Not fail safe but a good bet.

Amy You mentioned about the use of a prong collar. . . . . well, that is one hot potato here in Tassie. I would be permanently ostracised by my 'positive' friends and my local dog club would go into meltdown. Then I would lose any support that may be available. A check chain would pass, just! but I really don't feel I have much control with a check chain. For me, activating the check chain seems to be like 'nagging' and I don't have the strength to give it a pop that would be memorable. That is why I prefer the halti - it is kinder for both of us.

Again, thanks for the very useful discussions and the presentation of differing views. Even if one doesn't entirely agree, one can always learn something!!

Regards

Jolanda

Hi Jolanda,

I am thinking do you have any K9 trainers in Tassie, security dog trainers or even a good police dog handler/trainer that could help you?. Positive training groups and Halti's in my opinion won't provide the results you are looking for and as far as women handling large dogs as Amy does, I believe Julie Kopunovich from Victoria is said to be a very good female trainer/handler of working dogs may be worth having a chat with.

If you use a slip collar or what Leerburg call a Dominant Dog Collar high up on the neck, it doesn't take much pressure to apply a choke and if the dog is on the soft side, you don't have to lift their front feet off the ground, you don't hang them in the air, you apply pressure to their windpipe which takes drive away from the dog and when the dog relaxes, you let the pressure off, it's exactly what Cesar Milan does with reactive dogs and most people don't realise what he is doing or pick up on the fact of why he uses his own leash, which is a slip leash taking drive away from the dog if you watch closely.

For the record, I wouldn't be training with people with their toolbox half full, if they don't have a prong collar, Ecollar and a slip collar tucked underneath their clickers and treats and are prepared to use them when required, you are dealing with methodologists, not dog trainers in my opinion. A good trainer doesn't use any specific method or tools across the board, but they have the insight into dog behaviour to select the best method and tools to suit the individual dog. They may use a clicker or toys/treats on one dog then a prong collar etc on another, to me, that is proper dog trainer and the methodologists be it either all positive or all aversive are nothing but toss pots as far as I am conerned and can only train specific types of characters suitable to their methodology, they cannot train every character when their methods and tools are limited and restricted.

Cheers
Nev

[=Amy Pattison;18241]Certainly a wealth of constructive advice has been dealt out, i wish you the best with your male. I began with food, tools etc to assist as i had read from your posts, that you are not pro corrections, but i must say, he is (although maturing still) clearly testing you and is not respecting your ability as an alpha to him. I am with Nev, his views are exactly what i have done and will do if need be, because i made the conscious decision to own a large breed and with that, sometimes hard correction is an absolute must, owning dogs i have around kids and other people's kids i must control them, pregnant i worked my dogs, i am 5ft on the dot and am 49-50 kg, how do i control my 50 kg Rottweiler who is driven like a mother f*cker? I showed him who's the boss in this pack and so on....like the saying... size is not everything, it is the way you use your skills

I also believe in time out, that is play up....get locked up!... Play nice, get the fun

Great discussion![/]

Some of the best handling of highly driven dogs I have seen has been acomplished by smallish women, I think given that they are physically compromised over a big bloke if the dog decides to play up, I have found they actually train better obedience into the dog and take on a higher level of leadership than many big blokes who can more easily swing the dog around on the end of the leash in physical strength if things get out of shape. To a dog, the handler is the handler, they are not sexist or size conscious and makes no difference to the dog who's at the end of the leash. it's about how the handler takes on the role of training the dog as to how the dog behaves.

If someone is small or physically compromised with a strong dog male or female, their training and leadership role needs to be more regimented and precise form the beginning of training a new dog/pup so by the time the dog is ready to test the boundaries, they well and truly have learned the rules.

Cheers
Nev

I have got to wonder are they even worthy of owning the type of dog they are persuing.

That is what i always think when asked about or when people tell me what they have or want to get hold of, my curiosity leads me to the other question of if faced with a high drive, dominant, self assured animal....would they themselves know?? Breeder's who never work their dogs but own/mate working line dogs and breed from them are highly responsible for why we have these discussions in the first place, granted i don't pump pup's out, i don't trial my dogs but i know sitting in my yard what i do have and what i don't......seems everybody would like a WL dog for some benefit but do the dogs get the BEST out of us people??

[=Neville Patterson;18245]Hi Jolanda,

I am thinking do you have any K9 trainers in Tassie, security dog trainers or even a good police dog handler/trainer that could help you?. . . ., I believe Julie Kopunovich from Victoria is said to be a very good female trainer/handler of working dogs may be worth having a chat with.

Cheers
Nev[/]

Hi Nev,

Don't worry, with the help of this forum, my tool box is filling fast LOL And sadly no, we don't have police dogs handlers and the two training clubs are really only Pet Dog Clubs with little broader expertise. Although I applaud the shift towards positive methods, I believe that it can be taken too far too - there should be a balance in everything IMHO. And I do believe in correction, it is just that in the instance we were discussing, I thought it would make my dog worse. I don't believe he is a disrespectful dog since he is very manageable and obedient in nearly every other situation but I do believe that his behaviour is largely fear driven ie a get in first type of reaction and that is why I want to take great care in dealing with it.

Either way, I look at it as a learning opportunity and I welcome the input. There has been a wealth of information and advice and I certainly have a few ideas as to how to go about working with this dog. Had there been a Schutzhund club here, I would have been first in the line but there is nothing even close. There are also no working-line breeders in the state so I really am a Robinson Crusoe in that respect (Island and all!!). It would help to have some working-line peers around me.

Cheerio

Jolanda