|
|
|
||||||||
Good question Mark, Yes some dogs do switch from defense drive into some elements of fight drive but will not stay in fight drive. They would always switch back into defense drive which is their primary drive. This is an involuntary response (they cannot help themselves). We are not talking about training, we are talking about instincts here.Originally Posted by Mark Singer
A fight drive dog will always stay in fight drive, again, and some have elements of defense, but will always switch back into their primary drive which is fight drive. Again, it is an involuntary response.
Yes drives do overlap, but there is always one primary drive when you know when what hits the fan. What some people are confused over is the prey/defense model and this does not sit well with the fight drive dog in trying to explain using this model. JMO
Cheers,
Evan Harbalis
I beg to differ. Some dogs are born with fight drive. Yes you are correct in saying that some dogs mature into elements of fight drive, but the ones I am talking about, are the dogs that are born with fight drive instinctually.
Evan Harbalis
Totally disgree... hmm then in your thinking a dog cannot go from prey to defence? Prey is fun...defence is not!
I have seen and worked many many dogs, react defensively and switch into fight.....
I think this more about prefered training...you probably don't have much experience in prey work...just work high fight drive dogs..its easier. Working a high fight drive dog takes less effort
Remember that Dobi, you bred, Caruso?...very high fight drive dog, that worked in prey and defence...once in fight though, was a thrashing machine.... Had very high social aggression.. I know this as I wore his canines a couple of times training him
As we all know..dogs have varying levels/strengths/thresholds in regards to drives.. We also know that a dog cannot be in 2 drives at once.
to sugest that a dog must go straight into fight before going into defence is totally wrong. Thesholds are what is important here.
If I have a dog with higher defence drive than fight, and he is defending his territory or rank position...then a challenge comences, to say that a dog with strong fight drive does not cross over to this is crazy talk. Will he beat a dog with stronger fight drive..possibly not, unless he gets a lucky bite. However to sugest he can't switch into fight to me seems like you are in a different world.
I can even go from defending myself, and switch into fight drive as a mater of self survival.. I don't have to be in fight drive already before defence.
Never said that Mark. Of course a dog can go from prey to defence. Remember, in a well balanced dog defence comes after prey. You have a dog working in prey, whip him on the legs a few times, or increase the pressure and threat to the dog and defence you have. How much pressure depends on the dogs nerves and thresholds. Thats because Mark he wants you to stop threating or hurting him. But if you have a dog already in defence (not fun) you think by putting more pressure and threat on him he will go back to prey? Or will he go into avoidence? You can take a dog from defence back to prey by reducing pressure and stress and initiating prey reactions. But you certainly wont get there by putting more pressure on the dog. Thats the whole reason that fight is so important. High fight drive dogs will hang around so much longer than a defence dog will, and they are for real.
Remember we are talking about what the pinnicle of character should be for the strongest possible police dog, not what might just be adequate. A dog with a suspicious nature is not the pinnicle. Might be fine for a PP/Security dog on a lead, but not high level police.
And you did that by how? Reducing or increasing the threat? You increase the threat and pressure on a dog that hits defence as easy as you said, hes gonna go into avoidence, hes not gonna start enjoying it.
Your right, we do prefer to train in fight, but we still need extreme levels of prey. We use the prey at young ages to expose the pups, or if someone comes down with a dog that doesnt possess fight drive then we have no option than to work them in prey. There no use for defence in NVBK.I think this more about prefered training...you probably don't have much experience in prey work...just work high fight drive dogs..its easier. Working a high fight drive dog takes less effort
Working a strong fight drive dog takes less effort to get them to perform against opposition, but they take much, much, much more effort to put control in them.
I remember him well. I also remember the phonecalls from the owners telling me how they had to keep him in a muzzel all the time with them. How he tried to kill the wife when she pushed him away as he was trying to hump her. She told me she crawled to the back door with Caruso in a muzzel on her back trying to kill her across the backyard. Oh, and at 12 months of age.Remember that Dobi, you bred, Caruso?...very high fight drive dog, that worked in prey and defence...once in fight though, was a thrashing machine.... Had very high social aggression.. I know this as I wore his canines a couple of times training him
But I didnt do any training with him, so Im not qualified to comment if he was a super police dog or just a psycho
Most dogs Mark will go into defence, its their nerves and thresholds that determine at what point. Suspicious dogs tend to have less nerves by default. Some have enough courage to give a good fight. But to say that all police dogs should have natural suspision is just plain out of date.
www.workingdutchies.com
The original and the best
I had Caruso for about a year...Best Dobi I ever trained.. I sold him to a security guard in Mildura from memory... I'll never forget the day the guy took him.. Brought tears to my eyes.. Ask Sam..he was there. I couldn't believe how attached I had become to him. Hard bastard he was for sure....
I still don't agree that a dog cannot switch from defence to fight. There is also as you know self survival instinct..
Yes some dogs go from reactive defence into avoidance.
Yet others go from defence, into fight.
Typical examples are Pit Bulls and some Amstaffs depending on breeding .. I have trained (in the past. Do not do that type of training anymore, have become a lot more responsible over the past five years), and worked hard in defence to bring out fight.. I have had dogs back up in defence, and then just snap into fight and become raving lunatics...
So I am sorry I can't agree with you.
Actually even Caruso, I started him in in defence..which brought out fight drive... Again ask Sam..he had the sleeve on for him a few times. Dobies are renowned for analyzing a situation..well in my opnion they are..
Agreed.
I think Mark we have two totally different opinions on what fight drive is, kinda makes me think we are looking at two different things. What your describing as fight isnt fight to me.
I guess we are on two different worlds.
www.workingdutchies.com
The original and the best
I don't think so...defence is defence, fight is fight, prey is prey.
I been around dogs long enough to know the difference.
Mark, the best way I can describe this is to please view the following video of my dog Dares z Geradonu, who is tested by Sgt Donn Yarnall on the stake-out test [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VQcAE9ZkHo&feature=related"]YouTube- Dares Geradonu CS[/nomedia] Have a look at the stake-out test and listen to Sgt Donn Yarnall's comments. Listen very carefully to his critique after the stake-out test where he says "I saw no defense in this dog, it was all fight and accepting the challenge". After you viewed the stake-out test and listened to Sgt Donn Yarnall's comments, I would like for you to comment on what you think you see in the video and furthermore, comment on Sgt Donn Yarnall's critique.
Yes, Mark dogs do go straight into fight drive. This is the type of dog the NVPK, KNPV etc... all look for in a dog but it seems that some people in this country cannot move on from the defense/prey model.
Sorry Mark, if you think that I am from a different world, no offence taken, but I actually like the world I am in.
Cheers,
Evan Harbalis
Evan .. I never said a dog couldn't go straight into fight drive.. I am suggesting that because a dog is in defence, doesn't mean a dog can't swtich into fight..as Chris is sugesting.
Damn I seen many fight driven dogs...
Will look at vid now
Actions : (View-Readers)
Posting Permissions
LinkBack URL
About LinkBacks
Reply With Quote