Thread: Schutzhund conditioning

I would have to agree with you Craig as I have been saying the same thing for years. Lots of Sch dogs are made to look good but are not necessarily good dogs, I describe the Sch dogs similar to circus dog (they perform tricks), which is fine in my opinion until people try to pass them off as the real McCoy.

I have similar feelings on the issue, however I do know many people confuse what a sport dog is, it is a dog following a routine of behaviour but the training involved in conditioning the patterns, are where many dogs come unstuck by showing their negative traits etc exposing the weaker aspects of it's temperament. Meaning if you never show the dog a thing outside of it's set routine of course it will not be a true representation of the test originally

In regard to breeding requirements, people pay big money to have a dog titled in some countries because without the title the dog is void, therefore other motivators come in to play, put the dog through whatever it takes too get it to pass.....

Then there are some dogs as puppies who are gifted genetically and do the sport well and pass on valuable genes to the progeny.... If they are badly placed they suffer because of handler capabilities etc...

My point is variables are in all camps. Whether that's Work/show etc..

An old thread from here brought up similar questions:

http://www.specialistcanines.com/gen...ood-bitch.html

Hey guys,
sch / ringsport / prosport / security / sleeve / suit / hidden sleeve etc etc - a good dog is a good dog.

I imagine that by good dog we all mean dogs that will stand their ground and bite for real when they have to out of confidence and not fear.

I've seen many dogs participating in schutzhund both here and overseas that would make some so called "real' dogs look like a lap dog.

Dogs that are genetically predisposed to bite will bite irrespective of the training discipline.

The question should really be: are the breeders that you are talking to testing their breeding stock for the traits you are seeking - and more importantly if they are testing are they being honest with you, the puppy buyer!!

In saying that however, the onus must also be on the puppy buyer - did you witness that parents of the puppy working? Did you research the rest of the pedigree? Did you personally visit and see the sire/dam in their own environment? etc etc

The horror stories of buying site unseen are many and there will continue to be many - so dont make it easy for breeders that are happy to do business like this.
2 recent stories:
1-a prospective puppy buyer said that a breeder could not supply video footage of their dogs working because of the laws in VIC - really???
2 - an adult male, security dog bought into VIC from NSW on the owners word - no footage available because he was too busy - imported working bloodlines but dog is absolute rubbish

my recommendation is if you cant sse it - dont buy it.

I agree totaly that a good dog is a good dog regardless of the sport or work being conducted and this is not an arguement of sleeve, hidden sleeve suit etc but more an arguement of why are breeders using dogs soley based on titles. I also agree with what you say as far as looking at parents etc but it is too easy to make bad dogs look good. Unless you know the dog and what it was like throughout its training it is hard to see its faults.

I know of a sch3 dog who has blown away many knowledgable people with the way he works and trials and has now become a sort after stud dog yet I know that before this dog is trialed or trained or even is tracking on a new field it needs to be taken there 2-3 times prior to even do obedience or it becomes uncontrolable because its nerve structure doesn't allow it stay calm and focused. Unfortunately this has (whether people admit it or not) become common practise in the sport.

yes Craig, i agree with you, bad dogs can be made to look good - this is why it is important wherever possible to work the dogs yourself and take it out of its comfort zone. Also why seing the dogs at home is important to evaluate if they are in fact territorial etc

I also agree with you - titles mean nothing!! but in the same breath I have seen working patrol dogs that I wouldn't touch either.

Originally Posted by Craig Murray

I agree totaly that a good dog is a good dog regardless of the sport or work being conducted and this is not an arguement of sleeve, hidden sleeve suit etc but more an arguement of why are breeders using dogs soley based on titles. I also agree with what you say as far as looking at parents etc but it is too easy to make bad dogs look good. Unless you know the dog and what it was like throughout its training it is hard to see its faults.

I know of a sch3 dog who has blown away many knowledgable people with the way he works and trials and has now become a sort after stud dog yet I know that before this dog is trialed or trained or even is tracking on a new field it needs to be taken there 2-3 times prior to even do obedience or it becomes uncontrolable because its nerve structure doesn't allow it stay calm and focused. Unfortunately this has (whether people admit it or not) become common practise in the sport.

Hi all,
Lets be realistic in what the general population see.... A Title......
Just cause a dog has a schutzhund or any other title doesnt make it the real macoy...
It only shows that it has the required drive to do the sport....
Dont get me wrong I saw heaps of KNPV dogs that were the real Macoy in Holland.....
I believe the problem is in the raising and socialisation aspect of the dog..
We in Australia are still finding our feet in what to do in order to get the most out of our dogs....
Dont forget only a few years ago most people didnt even socialise their dogs if they were raising them to be security dogs.......
I personally dont care for sport dogs but would like them in my dogs bloodline especially titled ones.....
I see the sport dogs as a good foundation in regards to drive and grip and hopefully nerve.
But have to also agree have seen some terrible examples that through drive have looked better then they actually are.....


Regards
George

Good topic and I must say yes there are good and bad in ALL aspects of the dog world.So why do people look at titled dogs well I suppose because it is a good place to start as it does proove the lines capable in some way of work or show.
Although titles are not the be all and end all as you will find some mighty dogs locked in backyards just as pets.The thing I dont like with show dogs ( and we have shown dogs) is the fact they change the breed standard as the dogs become more pretty. To me conformation is just as important as temperament but working breeds should be able to work not just look pretty.
Good point George we are still learning here in Aus.

Artur so you think my Mal is a circus dog.....interesting.

I understand that titled dogs are a good place to start when looking for dogs and I am not argueing that. My issue is the way these dogs are conditioned to cover problems and the breeders/owners don't have the morals to see the dog for what it is but see it for what can be made. All too many times I have been told to title my dog and stud him out but I cannot use this dog for anything more than gaining experience in trialing for the sport.

Craig its sounds like your a bit bitter and maybe rightly so but you cant paint everyone with the same brush.Mate there are some very nice dogs in Sch and some good breeders and some damn fine trainers not all the dogs are polished into something their not but I do agree that some definately are and yes some breeders are kennel blind but you will get that everywhere you go.

In Aus we make the best of what we have hopefully one day what we have will be the best.