Thread: cant work this one out? dominance

Koehler eat your heart out :P

why are you having to stare him down? A dog that goes from growling at you and stiffening to rolling over and into big avoidance in two weeks ... not a dog I want for security. I agree with George, staring competitions in an animal that will be trained to use its teeth (and will have won on many occassions so it knows it can use them) is lighting a fuse between you two. Unless you're prepared to take on an lunge from an adult male bitework trained dog I wouldnt be doing it. I have had my 60kg dog try and take me on twice (love hormonal periods) and both times I stayed calm and dealt with it efficiently, calmly, and in a manner that made him think twice about doing it again.

what training has he had before? Looking dead straight into your face could be a taught behavior through focus, and rotties have that lovely stone stare LOL

If you want a working dog you have to have a relationship, not a heirachy based on you intimidating the dog. Training comes down to intelligence, learn which things push his buttons and use them to your advantage instead of engaging into a battle of the witless. Inevitably the dog tends to win.

As for the paw on the leg, move! If he turns out of position you walk again and make sure he sits where you want him to. Are you rewarding him for good work or simply correcting the bad? He could be confused.

I think before you go to much further find a good trainer and stick to them like glue. Sounds like you have a fair way to go in basic dog behaviour before you delve into protection training. Sorry if I sound critical but this type of training is just so specialised and easy to get wrong if you dont understand what you are looking at ... you made an investment i'm sure you want to see it come out to its full potential!

My previous post was done via my blackberry, so therefore had to brief.
I would like to weigh in a little further on this matter.
For starters I think that asserting dominance through challenge with any pup like this is a pretty misguided and old fashioned way to be with any dog, let alone a pup as young as the one you have described. Also, I am making the assumption that as a novice handler you are working on misguided and outdated methodologies and understandings, as learnt from those that don't know any better.
The predominant way to be with a puppy wherever the opportunity presents itself is to allow the dog to learn where the advantage lies. Having had the pup 4 days and having achieved dominance over him sounds suspiciously like you are lacking some basic understanding of canine behaviour.
This is surely no criticism Brad, just the old standard case of not having been given access to better information. Kudos to you for making the effort to post and ask for opinions, it is a huge step in the right direction!
Consider that you need only set clear boundaries for appropriate behaviour in order to keep the pup safe, and to use the minimum force necessary to achieve these aims. Repetition and consistency generally form the best base for achieving these aims, and ensure that if it does become time for you to enforce these boundaries in future the dog will already have a much clearer understanding of why it has been reprimanded.
Remember- teaching an alternate target behaviour is always best done before punishing a behaviour that will be required in the dog later, such as jumping, or even growling/challenging in possession of an object or resource.
Many experienced trainers or handlers can contradict this without detriment to the dog but this is generally learnt at the expense of having made significant mistakes and 'ruined' dogs in the past...and also having had to fix these issues often times!
Be sure to come from a standpoint of bonding and using minimum force, as once you use force then you teach a dog to feel a certain way about what it is learning. You cannot separate what a dog learns from how it feels about learning it, after all.
Also, as a general rule, you should be endeavouring to learn how your dog thinks, how his mindset affects his behaviour, etc. Generally, especially with pups and very young dogs, you will wind up paying the price in diminished working ability and attitude long into the future by incorrectly applying any force or compulsion.
Jen Santori wrote " Just remember that you will be needing him to watch your back at work, so remember to earn his respect so that he wants to put his life on the line for you." and I believe this to be sound advice. I believe that she meant you to understand that respect is based on trust, mutual benefit, and for the dog to have a highly appetitive association with you, his best mate and master.
Puppies are hard work, especially if they are not terribly strong dogs, which your dog may or may not be. They require large amounts of expertise to get them working well later, and the mistakes you make with them are generally magnified many many times in the end result you achieve.
The biggest learning I have done with puppies has been in what I dont do, not in what I actually do do. I am sure many others on this site would echo this as being basically true. Of course, this is said tongue in cheek and would not apply to things like socialisation and habituation.
Get professional advice mate, make his learning as fun and gentle as you can, try and teach him desirable alternatives to his currently displayed undesirable behaviours before using punishment, and concentrate on bond, bond, bond.
Hopefully this opinion holds some value for you, and aids you in some way. There appears to be some good advice in this thread Brad, so that is a great start.

From one Brad to another Brad, all the best with the dog!

BG